C02 : Pressurized or bio? Help me decide!

[kindafishy]

I need some help deciding if a pressurized CO2 system would be worth it for my set up, and if so....I need some guidance!! I have a yeast based bio system and I am not that happy with it, so I am thinking of splurging on a pressurized system. Or not.

My basic water chemistry is why I think I need CO2. I have extremely soft water and a neutral to acid pH, which yields a natural CO2 imbalance in my tank. When I first put the CO2 checker thingy in my tank, it was dead BLUE, and my little bio yeast-based system has a tough time maintaining it in a green hue. It kind of remains on the fringe of green, and when I test my water, I am always on the edge of good levels of C02. When it is ok, it is just barely.

BUT...my lighting is not strong. I am at 22 watts for 17 gallons. I know that sounds under-lit, but my plants are actually flourishing under these. I actually think that the watts per gallon rule might not be applicable to the lights I am using (Arcpod). Not sure about that though. Still, I not working with a high light system.

1) So, for a low light itty bitty 17 gallon set up, would I be going overboard to add a pressurized system?

2) If it is the right way to go, what do I need to look for in these systems? There are so many choices, that I am lost!!

3) I see that prices vary widely, based on certain components. Which of these 'extras' are worth it, and which are not? I am talking about things like :

- electric pH controller thingy (seems to drive the price up a lot)
- ability to control night switch off by a timer or pH thing
- other extras that I am missing

4) What the heck is the difference between the 'flipper' type diffuser, and a cylindrical one?

These are some of the systems I am looking at.

This one seems pretty complete, except no pH controller :
JBL ProFlora u402 CO² Fertilizer Set -Aquaristic shop

Here are a few from Ebay (sorry it is in French but there are pictures)

One with pH controller :
Kit CO2 complet pour 300 L. & PH mètre contrôleur C02 ! | eBay

One without :
Kit CO2 jusqu'à 300 Litres. Bouteille compatible JBL ! | eBay

Same thing (but only up to 200L), but with a 'flipper diffuser' :
Kit CO2 jusqu'à 200 Litres. Bouteille compatible JBL ! | eBay

I do know that I do not want the refillable kind as I would have a hard time finding somewhere for CO2 refills where I live ( = middle of nowhere). Trust me on this, I have a hard enough time finding fish!

And finally :

5) Ok, I feel silly asking this but is there any risk involved having this in my home. Like things blowing up etc. And would I have to notify my home-owners insurance company about having pressurized gas in the house?

I will take any advice I can get on this!

If pressurized is 'too much' for my low light tiny tank, then I'll stay with the bio and maybe try to improve it. Like, for instance -- is it normal that the solution starts to settle (sediment) at the bottom of the container after a while? Maybe that is why I am getting crappy results? Perhaps I can fix that with a DIY mixture?


kindafishy

 

[aqua_chem]

After a quick google search, these 'arcpods' are CFLs no? Little swirly bulb of some sort?


Assuming that, no, you do not need CO2. It would be incredibly unnecessary. DIY CO2 is probably be unnecessary too, but beneficial. You're smack dab in low light.


I'm not sure what you mean by CO2 imbalance of your water. CO2 concentration in water is, as far as I know, only a function of water temperature and atmospheric CO2 content (partial pressure of CO2). KH and pH are affected by CO2, not the other way around. Your drop checker should be blue, as there is very little CO2 naturally in water. Achieving 30 ppm CO2 (green drop checker) would be a feet in a 20g-ish tank with a single DIY CO2 container. But whatever CO2 you put in your tank will be a benefit to your plants.



CO2 tanks aren't all that dangerous. I suppose if you manage to blow off the regulator by doing something stupid (paintball CO2 regulator on #10 tank or something like that), you might knock a hole in a wall. CO2 is unreactive, non-flammable, and actually fairly non-toxic. Some people confuse it with CO (carbon MONoxide), which is bad business. Short of a perfect storm of conditions, a CO2 leak would not be a health risk, especially if your tank is <10 lbs.

 

[kindafishy]

After a quick google search, these 'arcpods' are CFLs no? Little swirly bulb of some sort?


Assuming that, no, you do not need CO2. It would be incredibly unnecessary. DIY CO2 is probably be unnecessary too, but beneficial. You're smack dab in low light.


I'm not sure what you mean by CO2 imbalance of your water. CO2 concentration in water is, as far as I know, only a function of water temperature and atmospheric CO2 content (partial pressure of CO2). KH and pH are affected by CO2, not the other way around. Your drop checker should be blue, as there is very little CO2 naturally in water. Achieving 30 ppm CO2 (green drop checker) would be a feet in a 20g-ish tank with a single DIY CO2 container. But whatever CO2 you put in your tank will be a benefit to your plants.



CO2 tanks aren't all that dangerous. I suppose if you manage to blow off the regulator by doing something stupid (paintball CO2 regulator on #10 tank or something like that), you might knock a hole in a wall. CO2 is unreactive, non-flammable, and actually fairly non-toxic. Some people confuse it with CO (carbon MONoxide), which is bad business. Short of a perfect storm of conditions, a CO2 leak would not be a health risk, especially if your tank is <10 lbs.

Thanks for that. Yes, Arcpods are CF, but not the swirly kind. I don't know what sort of difference that makes (if at all). I have a suspicion that the W/g rule is off here as far as these lights go, because my plants (even those requiring higher light) are growing like weeds. I have not been able to get ANY useful info regarding lumens, etc for these lights. Even from the booklet that came with the lights! Still, let's assume that I am in the realm of low light anyway.

Yes of course, I do know that KH and PH are effected by CO2 and not the other way around. I say an "imbalance" because according to 1) the chart in my test kit (KH vs pH) and 2) the CO2 calculation 3*KH*PH*10^(7-PH) and finally 3) my drop checker, my CO2 level is too low for proper plant growth. Are you saying that because I have low lights, none of these parameters have any meaning?

Since I have added my bio system, all three have moved into acceptable levels, although really just barely. Which is why I was thinking of going to pressurized.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. There is so much info out there, and it can be so confusing!

 

[aqua_chem]

Thanks for that. Yes, Arcpods are CF, but not the swirly kind. I don't know what sort of difference that makes (if at all). I have a suspicion that the W/g rule is off here as far as these lights go, because my plants (even those requiring higher light) are growing like weeds. I have not been able to get ANY useful info regarding lumens, etc for these lights. Even from the booklet that came with the lights! Still, let's assume that I am in the realm of low light anyway.

Yes of course, I do know that KH and PH are effected by CO2 and not the other way around. I say an "imbalance" because according to 1) the chart in my test kit (KH vs pH) and 2) the CO2 calculation 3*KH*PH*10^(7-PH) and finally 3) my drop checker, my CO2 level is too low for proper plant growth. Are you saying that because I have low lights, none of these parameters have any meaning?

Since I have added my bio system, all three have moved into acceptable levels, although really just barely. Which is why I was thinking of going to pressurized.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. There is so much info out there, and it can be so confusing!

Lights drive the need for CO2, nutrients. Without that drive, they can make use of what CO2 is naturally in water. I had a 10g with a 10w CFL over it w/o CO2. I would say that most people don't use CO2 with their plants.

Excel might be useful for you, depending on what plants you have.

 

[epiphysis]

IMO, I would say to look at improving your diy CO2 system. Maybe do a google search on different diffusers and play arounf with that.

By the sound of it your plants are doing well and you don't have that much lighting. So I don't see the need in spending all the money on a whole new pressure system.

 

[kindafishy]

Lights drive the need for CO2, nutrients. Without that drive, they can make use of what CO2 is naturally in water. I had a 10g with a 10w CFL over it w/o CO2. I would say that most people don't use CO2 with their plants.

Excel might be useful for you, depending on what plants you have.

Ok, but what kind of KH (and pH) were you dealing with? I don't think we can compare tanks in terms of plants just based on size and W/g. My KH out of the tap is very low (like 2, and with a pretty neutral pH), which tends to complicate matters.

 

[mfdrookie516]

I'm not sure why pH and kH are coming in to the equation... they have absolutely nothing to do with co2, unless you're trying to measure how much with a chart. Watts per gallon is as useless as putting gas in an electric car. It never works the way it is 'supposed to' because of the various types of lighting, reflectors, tank depth, etc.

Here's my question. If your plants are doing so well, and you're not having any other problems, why change?

 

[kindafishy]

I'm not sure why pH and kH are coming in to the equation... they have absolutely nothing to do with co2

If CO2 =3*KH*10^(7-pH), then there is a relationship.

And if according to whatever (chart, formula) my CO2 level is really low (and way lower than optimum for plant life), shouldn't this necessitate a CO2 injection? Seems logical to me, but maybe I am missing something? (totally and utterly possible -- I am new to this stuff!)

Watts per gallon is as useless as putting gas in an electric car. It never works the way it is 'supposed to' because of the various types of lighting, reflectors, tank depth, etc.

Agreed. I just wish there was more info around on my lights! Watts is the only indicator I have.

Here's my question. If your plants are doing so well, and you're not having any other problems, why change?

Yes, good question and maybe I should clarify. My plants are doing fine, and better since I added a bio CO2. But knowing how aquarium life is, I know that 'fine' really means 'fine for now'. My system gets me really to minimum levels (or under, depending on whom you chose to believe in terms of CO2 minimums), so I am just on the fringe of "ok". And bio seems to be a bit inconvenient, with the sediment settling in the container, the inconsistent dosing, and the inability to shut it off at night (when dosing seems a bit superfluous to me so would be a plus).

 

[Aspencer]

There is a chart floating around this site, my copy is on my work computer so for now, I have no access. This chart list different light, T5H0, T8, FL, & CFL (what you have) and different fixture to substrate heights to show what level of light you have for plants. I will try to post it later or someone might have it

 

[mfdrookie516]

If CO2 =3*KH*10^(7-pH), then there is a relationship.

And if according to whatever (chart, formula) my CO2 level is really low (and way lower than optimum for plant life), shouldn't this necessitate a CO2 injection? Seems logical to me, but maybe I am missing something? (totally and utterly possible -- I am new to this stuff!)

I think you're just misunderstanding it. kH is not affected by co2. pH is. Co2 is not affected by pH or kH. THe ONLY reason it is brought in to the equation is because that's a method (innacurate a lot of times) for measuring co2. The drop checker is the easiest, and more reliable method. It uses a known solution of water set at 4 degrees kH. The pH solution in the water turns colors based on the pH of the water. WHen it's green, that shows that the pH has been altered due to the concentration of co2 to about where you want it. It's not an exact science, but it's really close.

What I'm saying is that you just need to pay attention to the drop checker and forget anything else

Agreed. I just wish there was more info around on my lights! Watts is the only indicator I have.

And that's the only indicator any of us have. Most people say 2wpg is lower end medium - medium light. I have less than 2wpg of T5HO light (2x24w) on a 29g tank... it's far from 'medium'. I can grow any plants I want, even a lot of carpeting plants that many say require high light and co2. The type of bulb, the reflectors in the fixture, the depth of the tank, how high the fixture is off the tank, etc etc all play a role in how much light you have. Really, the easiest way to judge is by your plant health... and it sounds like yours are doing fine.

Yes, good question and maybe I should clarify. My plants are doing fine, and better since I added a bio CO2. But knowing how aquarium life is, I know that 'fine' really means 'fine for now'. My system gets me really to minimum levels (or under, depending on whom you chose to believe in terms of CO2 minimums), so I am just on the fringe of "ok". And bio seems to be a bit inconvenient, with the sediment settling in the container, the inconsistent dosing, and the inability to shut it off at night (when dosing seems a bit superfluous to me so would be a plus).

So... with your lighting, co2 isn't necessary. With good surface agitation, your tank will have 7-10ppm just from the air in the atmosphere. Unless you're running a high wattage fixture with several bulbs (ie high lighting), it won't be necessary.

OTOH, if you want to keep running co2, it certainly won't hurt anything. Pressurized is definitely easier... it'll cost about $150-200 up front for a 5lb kit, but it'll last quite a while... then refills will be anywhere from $5-30.

Being on the 'fringe of OK' is fine since you're not pushing the limit considering your lighting. I think it really all just depends on how far you're willing to go on something that you don't *need*.

 

[jetajockey]

it's from here
PAR vs Distance, T5, T12, PC - Updated Again Charts

I'm not sure what the technical stuff is behind co2 levels and kh apart from how a drop checker works.

I can tell you that I've had several successful planted tanks without any co2 injection and just ambient co2 levels, but the addition of co2 definitely helps since the ambient level will never be as high as a pressurized co2 setup can give.

One other issue with DIY Co2 is fluctuation, some people have reported algae issues with diy co2 and the idea is that since the co2 injection rate isn't steady that it spurs on algae growth.

 

[kindafishy]

mfdrookie -- I actually do understand that KH is not affected by CO2 and that pH is. Really, I do! I was just saying that you cannot say that there is no relationship, as you had stated.

And I do have a drop checker, and understand the concept. Mine is not a pure green, it is not blue. It is really in between the two. Before my bio CO2? It was blue which, theoretically, means my CO2 was too low.

And now that I do have bio CO2, I am in the blue-green (drop checker), my plants are not pearling, and the flow on my bio system is pretty inconsistent. Which is why I was wondering if I'd get better results with pressurized.

Is 7 - 10 ppm from the air and atmosphere alone enough for plant growth? I am talking about other than low light plants, because I have some medium to high light plants in my tank (I have to go with what I can obtain around here!)

 

[mfdrookie516]

mfdrookie -- I actually do understand that KH is not affected by CO2 and that pH is. Really, I do! I was just saying that you cannot say that there is no relationship, as you had stated.

I guess you misread my post... my apologies if it wasn't clear enough...

I'm not sure why pH and kH are coming in to the equation... they have absolutely nothing to do with co2, unless you're trying to measure how much with a chart.

 

[kindafishy]

it's from here
PAR vs Distance, T5, T12, PC - Updated Again Charts

I'm not sure what the technical stuff is behind co2 levels and kh apart from how a drop checker works.

I can tell you that I've had several successful planted tanks without any co2 injection and just ambient co2 levels, but the addition of co2 definitely helps since the ambient level will never be as high as a pressurized co2 setup can give.

One other issue with DIY Co2 is fluctuation, some people have reported algae issues with diy co2 and the idea is that since the co2 injection rate isn't steady that it spurs on algae growth.

Thanks for that! I'll have a look at that.

Yeah, definitely see fluctuations in my system. No algae to report, but I do get this fluffy white build up on the ceramic part diffuser. I imagine it is some sort of fungus. It is in very small amounts and I keep chasing it away.

In any case, my fish don't seem to give a crap about this CO2 stuff. Currently, their little minds have turned to making babies in my tank apparently. Cichlid dancing going on right now as I type.

 

[kindafishy]

I guess you misread my post... my apologies if it wasn't clear enough...

No apologies necessary! I am grateful you are taking the time to discuss this and answer my questions!

 

[jetajockey]

Pressurized co2 is always better than DIY, since you can put a set amount in there, as to whether it justifies the cost, that's your call. There are plenty of low tech tanks that look fantastic. And if you don't plan to go with more intense lighting I wouldn't bother with pressurized co2, but if you foresee adding better lighting in the future it may be worth it.

 

[kindafishy]

Pressurized co2 is always better than DIY, since you can put a set amount in there, as to whether it justifies the cost, that's your call. There are plenty of low tech tanks that look fantastic. And if you don't plan to go with more intense lighting I wouldn't bother with pressurized co2, but if you foresee adding better lighting in the future it may be worth it.

Yeah, that sounds reasonable and seems to be the general feeling I am getting here. I think I might try to tinker around with my bio system some more before I think about going to the next step. Thanks!

 

[aqua_chem]

If CO2 =3*KH*10^(7-pH), then there is a relationship.

Where does this equation comes from? I'm dubious of it's accuracy or relevance.



Hmm, I might have to run the numbers myself later today and see if I can get a beter equation .

 

[kindafishy]

Where does this equation comes from? I'm dubious of it's accuracy or relevance.



Hmm, I might have to run the numbers myself later today and see if I can get a beter equation .

I don't remember where I found that, I think I had seen it on various sources. I do know that it gives results that are a bit off from charts (or at least the chart from my test kit), not sure which one would be "correct". I actually started a thread a while ago asking about that, and all I got was *crickets*....(oh well). Anywho, by both 'standards' (note the use quotation marks!), my tank generally falls into the 'not enough CO2 category'.

Would be curious to see the result if you come up with a better equation. Yay! recreational chemistry math!!