Consistent Problem with BBA :(

[Purrbox]

If you aren't injecting CO2, then it's advisable to do less frequent water changes and or let the water sit out (or aerate it for an hour) before your water changes. This will help to avoid fluctuations that would encourage the BBA.

 

[ingg]

There are many things that affect calculation from the matrix. Any acid is read as CO2, and it can really throw folks for a loop.

The matrix is meant to be used off baseline... meaning, your water after 24 hours out of tap, vs. aquarium.

If you aren't injecting, you'd be hard pressed to get past 3-5 ppm in a normal aquarium. Be a little careful even of aerated tap vs. aquarium, as little things like tannin from driftwood are also read as acid, and mess up the matrix.

Totally agree with Purrbox - large water changes in a non injected tank cause fluctuations, and encourage algae. Do smaller changes more frequently, or let the water sit.... make it so there isn't the big fluctuation.

 

[Puddle]

There are many things that affect calculation from the matrix. Any acid is read as CO2, and it can really throw folks for a loop.

The matrix is meant to be used off baseline... meaning, your water after 24 hours out of tap, vs. aquarium.

If you aren't injecting, you'd be hard pressed to get past 3-5 ppm in a normal aquarium. Be a little careful even of aerated tap vs. aquarium, as little things like tannin from driftwood are also read as acid, and mess up the matrix.

Totally agree with Purrbox - large water changes in a non injected tank cause fluctuations, and encourage algae. Do smaller changes more frequently, or let the water sit.... make it so there isn't the big fluctuation.

Hi thanks for reply!

I don't inject CO2 and my tap water after 24hrs out was KH 10, pH7.6. My tank is KH 10, pH8.0 which was the same as tap water straight out. I do have driftwood in there, however if tannins were being read as acid the CO2 would be higher?! It seems that tap water gains CO2 (more than tank) after sitting out which is why I thought it would cause fluctuations if I let it sit out before adding it to tank for pwc? What do you think? I'm guessing from what you've said that there may be something else effecting the tank readings?! I normally do a wc once a week and change about 10-15%?

Thanks again!

 

[ingg]

Are you using a HOB filter or an airstone? If so, you'll probably have lower co2 levels than a glass of water, as they both actively aerate the water column vs. allowing for a static exchange on a smooth water surface like the glass. With KH 10, it is going to be hard to swing your water with CO2 levels, though.

Calcium based rocks? There are also items that do the opposite, release basic elements. Rocks being the most common, but there are a couple of others.

 

[Puddle]

Are you using a HOB filter or an airstone? If so, you'll probably have lower co2 levels than a glass of water, as they both actively aerate the water column vs. allowing for a static exchange on a smooth water surface like the glass. With KH 10, it is going to be hard to swing your water with CO2 levels, though.

Calcium based rocks? There are also items that do the opposite, release basic elements. Rocks being the most common, but there are a couple of others.

No I'm not using anything like that - its a low light simple set up (40g (uk one's!) with 60w lights, quite a few stemmed plants and gravel). I do have a background that is a rock effect - not sure if that would do anything but prob not... otherwise no idea!

 

[jsoong]

This is a bit strange. If your KH is 10 (degrees, true? not ppm), then your pH should be 7.8-8 after equilibration with air. This is basically what you see in your tank. So far, so good.

I don't understand why the pH should drop if your tap water just sit out for 24 hrs. It cannot gain CO2 past atmospheric level, and at a KH of 10, there should be enough buffering capacity to prevent that drastic a pH change.

I very much doubt that CO2 is in play here. I would think that your tap CO2, aerated tap CO2 & tank CO2 are all the same (ie atmospheric). May be there is some sort of volatile base in the tap water (perhaps Ca(OH)2) that is not being measured by the KH kit, and the change in pH is a temperature effect. Maybe, it is simply a pH read error (I can never tell 7.6 from 7.8 on the color scale ....)

 

[Puddle]

This is a bit strange. If your KH is 10 (degrees, true? not ppm), then your pH should be 7.8-8 after equilibration with air. This is basically what you see in your tank. So far, so good.

I don't understand why the pH should drop if your tap water just sit out for 24 hrs. It cannot gain CO2 past atmospheric level, and at a KH of 10, there should be enough buffering capacity to prevent that drastic a pH change.

I very much doubt that CO2 is in play here. I would think that your tap CO2, aerated tap CO2 & tank CO2 are all the same (ie atmospheric). May be there is some sort of volatile base in the tap water (perhaps Ca(OH)2) that is not being measured by the KH kit, and the change in pH is a temperature effect. Maybe, it is simply a pH read error (I can never tell 7.6 from 7.8 on the color scale ....)

Yes, the KH reading was in degrees, not ppm. I agree with you - it is a bit odd! Perhaps the tap water does have a CO2 level lower than atmospheric which is why the pH drops/CO2 goes up after sitting out, and therefore the pH/KH reading is not accurate (it is a dip test so would not surprise me) or as you say something else in the tap water is causing it. I'll go with sitting water out before pwc in future anyhow!

Incidentally, I have been using Excel at 2x dose everyday for 5 days now - the hair algae that I had bits of on driftwood has definately taken a beating and is not as prevalent as it was. The BBA hasn't grown any more since using it but as yet isn't dying either...Should I just keep using it until 2 weeks at a 2x normal dose? After my pwc at the w/e I didn't put in a 5x initial dose like Seachem suggest but I might do it this time round. I was conservative as I wasn't sure of the effects on fish etc but they all look healthy and fine and I don't have any plants that have been reported to be effected by Excel so no worries there.

Oh I am also looking for a good foreground plant to add to my tank - any suggestions?!

Thanks again!

 

[SpeedEuphoria]

Incidentally, I have been using Excel at 2x dose everyday for 5 days now - the hair algae that I had bits of on driftwood has definately taken a beating and is not as prevalent as it was. The BBA hasn't grown any more since using it but as yet isn't dying either...Should I just keep using it until 2 weeks at a 2x normal dose? After my pwc at the w/e I didn't put in a 5x initial dose like Seachem suggest but I might do it this time round. I was conservative as I wasn't sure of the effects on fish etc but they all look healthy and fine and I don't have any plants that have been reported to be effected by Excel so no worries there.

How bad is the BBA?

Try doing a spot treatment, you'll see the BBA turn pink/red or whiteish by the end of the day meaning its dying.

 

[Puddle]

BBA is fairly bad - have alot of it on driftwood and my background. It was just growing back after I was pulling it off. Also have quite a bit on my foreground plants as they are v slow growing but not so much on the stemmed faster one's. Also have it attached to the few resident mini-snails as well as by the filter intake...

Perhaps I should try a spot treatment when I do pwc...

 

[jsoong]

Oh, to kill BBA - you actually need 2x the initial dose, rather than 2x the normal dose. <Warning, some plants will be killed at this dose - my vals & hornwort did!> People would use the total dose & spot treat with it (so you get an even higher local concentration). you would prob. need the overdose for 3-5 days to get at the BBA.

 

[SpeedEuphoria]

Oh, to kill BBA - you actually need 2x the initial dose, rather than 2x the normal dose. <Warning, some plants will be killed at this dose - my vals & hornwort did!> People would use the total dose & spot treat with it (so you get an even higher local concentration). you would prob. need the overdose for 3-5 days to get at the BBA.

I would highly advise against doing 2x the initial dose especially daily or if you have fish that your attached to. The initial dose is already 5x the normal dose. If you have tons of algae and none of the plants listed below then increasing to 3-5x the daily dose(which would be up to the WC dose of 10ml per 20G) every other day for 1 week should knock out most of the algae no prob.

Also for reference: Anacharis, vals, riccia, and fissidens are especially sensitive to Excel

 

[ingg]

I would highly advise against doing 2x the initial dose especially daily or if you have fish that your attached to. The initial dose is already 5x the normal dose. If you have tons of algae and none of the plants listed below then increasing to 3-5x the daily dose(which would be up to the WC dose of 10ml per 20G) every other day for 1 week should knock out most of the algae no prob.

Also for reference: Anacharis, vals, riccia, and fissidens are especially sensitive to Excel

Funny, I do it quite often without adverse affect to livestock (inverts excluded, this can affect shrimp).

It is a quite common method of algae killing.

 

[jabo]

I hope you guys don't mind me joining in here but I have been following along with this since the begining. The reason is I have the same algae problem in one of my tanks and did the treatment with excel. The algae has turned red after the second day which I understand to be a good sign that it is dieing. Now how do I go about getting rid of it off the plants or do I wait and will it get pulled into filters? The stuff is just about impossible to remove by hand.
Sorry if I intruded and hope you don't mind but couldn't find any answers anywhere else.

 

[Puddle]

I would highly advise against doing 2x the initial dose especially daily or if you have fish that your attached to. The initial dose is already 5x the normal dose. If you have tons of algae and none of the plants listed below then increasing to 3-5x the daily dose(which would be up to the WC dose of 10ml per 20G) every other day for 1 week should knock out most of the algae no prob.

Also for reference: Anacharis, vals, riccia, and fissidens are especially sensitive to Excel

Hi all thanks for your post!

So, after a week of 2x normal treatment (my last post) and a pwc I tried the initial dose as a spot treatment adding max vol of 5x Excel. The next day, the BBA that I treated on background and wood is definately pink, hooray! The following day I did a 2x normal dose (not as spot), and today a 2-3x normal dose (I had a problem with shaky hand syndrome, doh!).

The hair algae is definately better than before and the algae that was covering the background (just a black algae that I didnt mind) is also beginning to clear up - also the leaves of plants look cleaner than before which is great. I think (as stated before!) that spot dosing may be a good thing but a general tank dose is helping generally. Perhaps I just have so much that its taking longer and I do admit that the BBA was quite established (had it for about 6 months or so).

Do I just keep treating or should I pull off the BBA as well (Like Jabo asks - hello btw!)? The BBA that I haven't spot dosed doesn't seem to be going... but isnt growing anymore either. I have none of those plants so I may up the dose to 3-5x as you suggest considering the BBA hasn't gone red with normal tank dosing as apposed to spot treatments.

I am also interested Jabo, how you treated - spot/general dose - and how much to get yours to go pink in 2 days?!

Thanks again!

 

[jabo]

Well I over did it for sure as I did 4x dose the first day, now this morning I see the tank is very cloudy. I see the algae is very red also but don't know how I am going to get it out of tank or just wait it out and see what happens.

 

[czcz]

Two cents: you have to get it out of the tank (trim off BBA infected leaves) and you have to do a water change right afterward and hope to get as many of the free floating spores as you can (Barr/Plantbrain's method: mess with the algae because it is weak, then water change because stupid algae sends spores and can beat you). Whether you stop it spreading with CO2/removing the limiting nutrient or kill new growth with Excel, you have to physically remove BBA then beat back new growth, water change, redose (or not if sure there's still nutrients available) and continue to make sure you have no limiting nutrients.

I am of the opinion that CO2 fluctuations from water changes or say intermittent surface agitation is not enough to cause BBA, but perhaps is advantageous for existing BBA to flourish and survive. I think it is more likely that C bottomed out for an extended period of time and BBA was born. That's just my guess, of course.

 

[Puddle]

Two cents: you have to get it out of the tank (trim off BBA infected leaves) and you have to do a water change right afterward and hope to get as many of the free floating spores as you can (Barr/Plantbrain's method: mess with the algae because it is weak, then water change because stupid algae sends spores and can beat you). Whether you stop it spreading with CO2/removing the limiting nutrient or kill new growth with Excel, you have to physically remove BBA then beat back new growth, water change, redose (or not if sure there's still nutrients available) and continue to make sure you have no limiting nutrients.

Thanks for your ideas - I agree with you but I am hoping the SAE will help me with that problem (I have 4, 3 young one's which are eating like mad) now that the algae is pink - it is definately dying off though! I gave the tank a 3x dose this morning, got a bit carried away but the fish and plants look fine... I'll probably spend a bit of time pulling the leaves out that are affected tonight though as the BBA on those hasn't gone pink.

My thoughts are (after 10 days of using this stuff) that I reckon a spot dose works best followed by a regular treatment once the BBA is already dying...otherwise the BBA hasn't changed.

 

[Puddle]

Hi again

I don't know whether anyone else using Excel has noticed this but I know I said the hair algae was definately going, well now that the BBA is dying (its definately going now!) the hair algae seems to be slowly growing again! Any thoughts anyone?!

 

[jsoong]

I've noticed that too. Algae seems to have some hierarchy. Prob. have to do with nutrient levels. When you kill off one type of algae, some nutrient becomes available so another algae can take over. Since BBA is the baddest of the lot, I don't mind having green algae taking off & keeping BBA in check. Eventually, you would want to arrange things so that it is your plants that are taking off & ALL algae are kept in check!

 

[Puddle]

I've noticed that too. Algae seems to have some hierarchy. Prob. have to do with nutrient levels. When you kill off one type of algae, some nutrient becomes available so another algae can take over. Since BBA is the baddest of the lot, I don't mind having green algae taking off & keeping BBA in check. Eventually, you would want to arrange things so that it is your plants that are taking off & ALL algae are kept in check!

I wondered it if was to do with the dying algae secreting 'nutrients' that feed the green algae (I assume it would be a good idea to do a pwc sooner rather than later for this very reason)? Hmmm...:-|