liquid ferts?

[LeviRH]

If excess nutrients was the primary cause of algae than everyone dosing an EI fert schedule would have obscene amounts of algae. It's a balancing act between having enough ferts, proper light, and enough available carbon. If one is insufficient then that's when algae grows.

Not trying to argue, nor upset anyone. I generally like to avoid conflict, but everyone has an opinion, and that is acceptable.

The primary cause of algae is excessive nutrients. This is a worldwide phenomenon, in and outside of aquariums. Eutrophication. If your plants don't and cannot use it, the algae will.

Granted, with the proper level of CO2, lighting, and nutrients, this can be avoided to a certain extent. It's a balancing act for your plants, not the prevention of algae, as it is generally always there.

Algae generally will only become a problem IF there is too much light (something will use it, and algae is very good at this), IF there is an excess of nutrients in the water (something has to remove it, and algae is very good at this), and IF the CO2 levels are too high (something will to use it, and algae is very good at this)

If you want to avoid algae, run a UV sterilizer (careful, though because it can kill beneficial bacteria, also) here and there to neutralize it, and dose with Excel, as glutaraldehyde is a wonderful algicide.

 

[Brookster123]

Not trying to argue, nor upset anyone. I generally like to avoid conflict, but everyone has an opinion, and that is acceptable.

The primary cause of algae is excessive nutrients. This is a worldwide phenomenon, in and outside of aquariums. Eutrophication. If your plants don't and cannot use it, the algae will.

Granted, with the proper level of CO2, lighting, and nutrients, this can be avoided to a certain extent. It's a balancing act for your plants, not the prevention of algae, as it is generally always there.

Algae generally will only become a problem IF there is too much light (something will use it, and algae is very good at this), IF there is an excess of nutrients in the water (something has to remove it, and algae is very good at this), and IF the CO2 levels are too high (something will to use it, and algae is very good at this)

If you want to avoid algae, run a UV sterilizer (careful, though because it can kill beneficial bacteria, also) here and there to neutralize it, and dose with Excel, as glutaraldehyde is a wonderful algicide.

So.... algae will result from an excess of co2? And a uv sterilizer will wipe out/prevent surface algae?? It will even kill bb as it resides in the water column?? This is new...

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[trennamw]

Perhaps I should give the Osomocote Plus another whirl, and use a bit more this time. I've been known to under feed.

Maybe. I used "0" capsules, which hold about 30-50% less than the "00" usually used, and the plants took off.

I suspect it's all relative to what they were just "eating". And then there's the thing about them only using so much ferts if co2 or light are limited ...


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[LeviRH]

So.... algae will result from an excess of co2? And a uv sterilizer will wipe out/prevent surface algae?? It will even kill bb as it resides in the water column?? This is new...

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This is actually quite old. I believe it started in the early 2000's.

Algae is a plant. Perhaps you're unaware of photosynthesis. Let me spell it out for you. Light makes energy for plants. It is absorbed through chlorophyll, along with carbon dioxide. It is then converted into oxygen, and sugar, and then the sugar is converted to starch which is stored throughout the plant.

Secondly, A UV sterilizer will kill most free floating organisms that pass through it. Bacteria, phytoplankton, viruses, so on and so forth, as it was originally intended. So yes, it can and will kill and sterilize bacteria, and algae. Most of which starts off as free-floating, by the way. If you wanted to go even further on algae prevention, use de-ionized water.

 

[Brookster123]

Algae is a plant. Perhaps you're unaware of photosynthesis. Let me spell it out for you. Light makes energy for plants. It is absorbed through chlorophyll, along with carbon dioxide. It is then converted into oxygen, and sugar, and then the sugar is converted to starch with is stored throughout the plant.

Secondly, A UV sterilizer will kill most free floating organisms that pass through it. Bacteria, phytoplankton, viruses, so on and so forth, as it was originally intended. So yes, it can and will kill and sterilize bacteria, and algae. Most of which starts of as free-floating, by the way. If you wanted to go even further on algae prevention, use de-ionized water.

Wow! Youre smart huh? I wish I was smart.

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[jetajockey]

I would have to argue that it takes massive UV sterilizers to effectively kill bacteria and parasites. Most of the basic consumer models are great at killing green water algae but the other algae types seem less affected.

 

[Mebbid]

The primary cause of algae is excessive nutrients. This is a worldwide phenomenon, in and outside of aquariums. Eutrophication. If your plants don't and cannot use it, the algae will.

Algae functions with much lower levels of fertilizers than plants. Unless you somehow hamange to get a 0.0ppm of both nitrate and phosphate in your tank, then there will always be enough nutrients for algae to grow. If there isn't enough fertilizer in the water for a planted tank it will foster an algae bloom. Again, I will use EI fertilization as an example because it is flooding the tank with nutrients. the primary goal of this fertilization method is to prevent a lack of any nutrient for plants from ever occurring. Doing this puts soo much fertilizer in the water that a weekly 50% water change is necessary.

I will use this picture of my tank as an example. I used EI ferts which had a ton of potassium in the water, kept a 2 - 3 ppm phosphate level, and around 20ppm of nitrates. There wasn't any algae to be found in the tank. If too much nutrients was the sole cause of algae like you say, it would have been a tank full of algae.

Out in the environment, it's a much different matter than our closed systems. Primarily because there is a nearly unlimited amount of light.

Algae generally will only become a problem IF there is too much light (something will use it, and algae is very good at this), IF there is an excess of nutrients in the water (something has to remove it, and algae is very good at this), and IF the CO2 levels are too high (something will to use it, and algae is very good at this)

This is exactly what I meant about there needing to be a balance between the three. If there's an imbalance of any of the 3, that is too little fertilizers, too much lighting, or too little carbon. A lack of available is the #2 cause of algae growth in the aquarium after too much light.

Again, algae is much better at utilizing things in the water than plants are. There will never be too small of an amount of carbon in the water to prevent algae growth, however there can easily be too small of an amount of carbon to grow plants.
[/quote]

If you want to avoid algae, run a UV sterilizer (careful, though because it can kill beneficial bacteria, also) here and there to neutralize it, and dose with Excel, as glutaraldehyde is a wonderful algicide.

A UV sterilizer is far from an efficient method of algae control. the only real way to control algae in an aquarium is to reach that balance between ferts, lights, and carbon.

Algae will not grow on healthy plants. First and foremost it takes hold on plants that are improperly fertilized and suffering a lack of CO2.

 

[PerfectDepth]

I'm finding an enormous difference between Osmocote DIY tabs and Seschem flourish root tabs.

Enormous, like ... New baby crypts barely grew for a month with seachem tabs and doubled in a week with a size 0 Osmocote tab.

Mebbids DIY tabs is a good thread to go find.


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Yep, they're two different types of tabs with different uses. The Flourish tabs are only for supplying micro nutrients to root-feeders. Not a good choice if you need to add macros to the substrate, but may be sufficient in a low-tech tank with non-vacuumed substrate, or useful for a tank in which buildup of phosphates or nitrates is a concern.


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[Gillie]

Hello Nick...

I'd try one and use it up and then use the other. Plants aren't much different than fish. They can tire of the same diet month after month. My plant guy at alphaprobreeders recommended Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive when I first got my plants into the tank. You could cycle this liquid too. Nothing like a varied diet to keep the tank inhabitants healthy.

B

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[evil Nick]

Well I do have excel.
I read the bottle wrong, it says "PROMOTES" ferrous state of iron, not adds iron. I'm new

I swear I thought I read potassium but I didn't re check.

Im going to alternate my fert and excel. One water change I'll use one, the next the other. I do a cleaning and PWC every friday.
Ive read on some reviews flourish wiped out some peoples Neon Tets, have any of you ever had this happen? Im a modest doser with EVERYTHING.

 

[Mebbid]

Well I do have excel.
I read the bottle wrong, it says "PROMOTES" ferrous state of iron, not adds iron. I'm new

I swear I thought I read potassium but I didn't re check.

Im going to alternate my fert and excel. One water change I'll use one, the next the other. I do a cleaning and PWC every friday.
Ive read on some reviews flourish wiped out some peoples Neon Tets, have any of you ever had this happen? Im a modest doser with EVERYTHING.

Excel breaks down within a day and needs to be dosed daily. You can also skip the large initial dose and just use the regular 1ml per 10g.

The flourish didn't kill the neon tets. It was something else.

 

[PerfectDepth]

Excel breaks down within a day and needs to be dosed daily. You can also skip the large initial dose and just use the regular 1ml per 10g.

The flourish didn't kill the neon tets. It was something else.

+1 Excel isn't going to do much for your plants unless you're dosing it every day. I'm not sure, but sporadic dosing of Excel might even cause algae problems (just like CO2 fluctuation). Your plants need the both the ferts and the carbon, there's no point in alternating between them.

The thing about Flourish Excel and glut in general is that it's obvious that different people have different experiences with it, which is why it's the subject of so much debate. I wish I understood why. Do some people experience fish deaths after dosing glut? YES, that much is obvious, but though it may be correlated, it isn't necessarily the direct cause. It doesn't seem to make sense.. but if I had to guess I think I could narrow it down to two possibilities:

1) accidentally overdosing glut without realizing it

2) the tank already had a critically low level of oxygen, and the addition of a normally reasonable dose of glut dropped the oxygen level to the point of suffocation.

Either way, in my opinion any changes in dosage of glut should be done gradually, (including the addition of the initial dosage). In a low-light tank, I like to start with a very small dose, a half-dose or even just a quarter-dose, and slowly increase it over time, while monitoring the results to "eyeball" a sufficient daily dosage. In a high-light tank, I would probably start with a full dose, or maybe even a double dose, and increase slowly etc. Some people with high-light tanks have safely increased the dose (slowly) to as much as 10 times the suggested dose.

 

[Caliban07]

Algae functions with much lower levels of fertilizers than plants. Unless you somehow hamange to get a 0.0ppm of both nitrate and phosphate in your tank, then there will always be enough nutrients for algae to grow. If there isn't enough fertilizer in the water for a planted tank it will foster an algae bloom. Again, I will use EI fertilization as an example because it is flooding the tank with nutrients. the primary goal of this fertilization method is to prevent a lack of any nutrient for plants from ever occurring. Doing this puts soo much fertilizer in the water that a weekly 50% water change is necessary.

I will use this picture of my tank as an example. I used EI ferts which had a ton of potassium in the water, kept a 2 - 3 ppm phosphate level, and around 20ppm of nitrates. There wasn't any algae to be found in the tank. If too much nutrients was the sole cause of algae like you say, it would have been a tank full of algae.

Out in the environment, it's a much different matter than our closed systems. Primarily because there is a nearly unlimited amount of light.

This is exactly what I meant about there needing to be a balance between the three. If there's an imbalance of any of the 3, that is too little fertilizers, too much lighting, or too little carbon. A lack of available is the #2 cause of algae growth in the aquarium after too much light.

Again, algae is much better at utilizing things in the water than plants are. There will never be too small of an amount of carbon in the water to prevent algae growth, however there can easily be too small of an amount of carbon to grow plants.

A UV sterilizer is far from an efficient method of algae control. the only real way to control algae in an aquarium is to reach that balance between ferts, lights, and carbon.

Algae will not grow on healthy plants. First and foremost it takes hold on plants that are improperly fertilized and suffering a lack of CO2.[/QUOTE]


Forgive me for asking but I really don't understand the mechanics behind this. I'm not arguing. I just don't understand how if algae uses nutrients more efficiently than plants and there is an abundance of nutrients in the water column how algae can be kept at bay without suppressing the plants.

Is this where the lighting comes in?

I hear this 'balance' thing quite regularly when taking about how to grow plants and keep algae away but I really don't understand how you can measure this balance and if anyone knows what the values of x co2 x light and x nutrients are to achieve the balance for a given plant. Obviously dosing these things work but I really don't understand the logic behind it. It's too easy to say keep the balance in my opinion. What does that even mean?


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[evil Nick]

Excel breaks down within a day and needs to be dosed daily. You can also skip the large initial dose and just use the regular 1ml per 10g.

The flourish didn't kill the neon tets. It was something else.

On initial use or after a major (> 40%) water change, use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 40 L (10 gallons*). Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200 L (50 gallons*) daily or every other day. Dosing may be slowly increased in high-growth aquariums. For smaller dosing please note that each cap thread is approximately 1 mL.

I misread the directions. Thanks
Didnt realize it was every other day/every day.

Ill do every other.

 

[Mebbid]

Yeppers. Just skip the large initial dosage. Theres no reason for it... its really just profit mongering by seachem

 

[PerfectDepth]

Forgive me for asking but I really don't understand the mechanics behind this. I'm not arguing. I just don't understand how if algae uses nutrients more efficiently than plants and there is an abundance of nutrients in the water column how algae can be kept at bay without suppressing the plants.

Is this where the lighting comes in?

I hear this 'balance' thing quite regularly when taking about how to grow plants and keep algae away but I really don't understand how you can measure this balance and if anyone knows what the values of x co2 x light and x nutrients are to achieve the balance for a given plant. Obviously dosing these things work but I really don't understand the logic behind it. It's too easy to say keep the balance in my opinion. What does that even mean?


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To attempt to answer your first question, the idea is to create an environment in which algae cannot compete with the plants. While we know that excess nutrients are not the cause of algae, no one really knows exactly why, so you're not alone. All we know is that plenty of healthy, growing plants that are not limited by nutrients or CO2 = very minimal algae. One way of looking at it is that as long as the plants are using the available energy (light) to the fullest extent possible, it makes it difficult for algae to take hold, so the best practice is to make sure that light is the limiting factor instead of CO2 and/or nutrient levels. Algae is opportunistic, and will survive by scavenging the tiniest amount of nutrients, but if there isn't much excess light available (and CO2 and nutrients are both abundant and stable), for some reason algae seems to sit back and let the plants do their thing, waiting for the opportunity of conditions that are better suited to its propagation. If this was not true, aquatic plants would not even survive in nature since they would always just be overtaken by algae.

Yeah, the "balance" idea threw me off in the beginning. It's not like there is some critical balancing point where everything has to be exactly right. I think some people get the wrong impression of what "balance" means in regard to planted tanks. Really, the only reason we need to limit CO2 and/or nutrient levels is for the sake of our fish.

Basically, CO2 and light level go hand in hand, and will compensate for each other to an extent because of the ability of plants to adapt (I'll spare the details.) If you have plenty of light, but not quite enough CO2, the plants might still be able to make full use of the available light, but this is not the "safe side", thus there's a greater risk of algae explosion. The "safe side" is to make sure there is plenty of CO2 (and nutrients of course), but not quite enough light, that way you ensure that light will be the limiting factor.

 

[Cthulhu]

Basically, CO2 and light level go hand in hand, and will compensate for each other to an extent because of the ability of plants to adapt (I'll spare the details.)

Here are the details. It is a very interesting read
Tropica Aquarium Plants - Rådgivning - Tekniske artikler - Vandplanters biologi - Interaktioner mellem lys og CO2

 

[evil Nick]

Yeppers. Just skip the large initial dosage. Theres no reason for it... its really just profit mongering by seachem

too late, did the initial dose. It was only 3 capfuls, so no HUGE loss.

Anyway just curious here but don't fish expel CO when they breath out. Is the offset really so little the plants need more? I could see in a high planted tank maybe but lower to middle?


Anyway Im going to use this a bit and also attempt a diy CO for a bit. I want to take things in stride to see where the real boom happens. If the flourish is enough then Im fine using that with no DIY until I get a bigger tank.

 

[Mebbid]

Forgive me for asking but I really don't understand the mechanics behind this. I'm not arguing. I just don't understand how if algae uses nutrients more efficiently than plants and there is an abundance of nutrients in the water column how algae can be kept at bay without suppressing the plants.

Is this where the lighting comes in?

I hear this 'balance' thing quite regularly when taking about how to grow plants and keep algae away but I really don't understand how you can measure this balance and if anyone knows what the values of x co2 x light and x nutrients are to achieve the balance for a given plant. Obviously dosing these things work but I really don't understand the logic behind it. It's too easy to say keep the balance in my opinion. What does that even mean?


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I actually asked just about that same question. The answer I got seemed reasonable and followed along with most I was able to read on the topic as well as what I've seen in my own tanks

First is that algae doesn't start photosynthesis as quickly as plants do. It takes them longer to start the process and this is the primary reason why longer lighting times cause algae growth

Next is the growth of algae on plants. Most plants emit a mild algaecide. When the plants are healthy they prevent the algae growth on them, however when they aren't growing they aren't warding off the algae growth. This necessitates proper CO2 and Light.

There's more to it I'm sure, but that would have to be a question posed to Tom Barr for a proper answer.

 

[PerfectDepth]

Here are the details. It is a very interesting read
Tropica Aquarium Plants - Rådgivning - Tekniske artikler - Vandplanters biologi - Interaktioner mellem lys og CO2

Thanks for this.