Greetings from NorCal!

[Figuringitout]

Hey there! A new member to the forum here, looking to find an active discussion forum and to share and hear about others adventures. I live outside of Sacramento, CA and work by week in IT & Software as a Project Manager. I love cycling, hanging with my husband and cattle dog German Shepherd mix, "Woody," hiking and going to the mountains and beach.

Returned to fish keeping within the last 6-9 months after nearly 20+ years away. Since then I have set up 3 tanks with substrate, some aquascaping and moved from plastic to live plants. I now have maybe 40 fish in the various tanks.

Tanks - (2) Fluval Flex 15 and (1) 20G High.
Fish - (4) Dwarf Gouramis, (6) Phantom Tetra, (2) Salt'n'Pepper Corys (1) Sterbai Cory, (1) Dwarf Leopard Albino Pleco,(5) Otocinclus, (3) Rasboras (5) Neon tetras, (6) Ember tetras, (1) Golden Algae Eater, (2)Angel pair, (3) Rummynose.

I have learned so much and I believe that I am near geeking out as a newbie. I have made my mistakes and hopefully have learned from them. Discovered dragonstone, started crypts from in vitro and haven't killed them yet. Love easy plants like swords and Anubias, java ferns, hygrophila and echinodoros.

My next goal is to have my breeding pair of angels figure out how to get beyond the wiggler phase..

Thanks for letting me say "hello" and hope to see you online!

 

[Aiken Drum]

Welcome to the community. Looking forward to seeing and hearing about what you are getting up to.

Im sure andy sagar will be able to steer you in the right direction with regards to breeding angels.

 

[Figuringitout]

Thank you!

Thank you, Aiken Drum! Looking forward to engaging with the more experienced.

 

[Andy Sager]

Hi and welcome to the site.

I'm sure you've seen how fish keeping had changed a little in your 20 year absence. Fact of the matter is that only the machinery changed. The main concepts that occur in fish keeping haven't.

As for your Angelfish situation, there is an excellent thread here that was an ongoing discussion by hobbyist and professional Angelfish breeders. It's a long read but I'd say just about anything concerning Angelfish was discussed in it. Here's the link: https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f82/wigglers-at-last-237956.html
If you have any other questions, be sure to ask. I have many years of experience commercially breeding Angelfish for the trade.

 

[Figuringitout]

Thanks, Andy!

The pair originally was part of a community tank. Their first spawn, they ate all of the eggs overnight. The 2nd the male fertilized but again, ate the eggs during the night, after protecting for many hours.

On the most recent spawn, I had set up a Fluval Flex 15 for the pair and "Goldy" the chinese Algae Eater. Within 2 hours of transferring them to the new tank they spawned. Understanding that it could have been stress induced, I didn't try to manage the outcome and let them just "do their thing" (I say that out of ignorance), yet on this try - WE HAD WIGGLERS! So cool.

Within a few days all wigglers disappeared...I witnessed the female scooping them up but couldn't locate where she might have put them.

Saturday is water change day and sure enough last night, my husband said,"they laid eggs on he back of the tank." I really do need to give them a better surface.

I will go through that thread that Andy shared, and maybe "Goldy" needs a new home, but to my knowledge he/she is kept at bay by Dad Angel.

Any immediate guidance is welcomed and well appreciated.

Thanks for letting me share.

 

[Andy Sager]

The pair originally was part of a community tank. Their first spawn, they ate all of the eggs overnight. The 2nd the male fertilized but again, ate the eggs during the night, after protecting for many hours.

On the most recent spawn, I had set up a Fluval Flex 15 for the pair and "Goldy" the chinese Algae Eater. Within 2 hours of transferring them to the new tank they spawned. Understanding that it could have been stress induced, I didn't try to manage the outcome and let them just "do their thing" (I say that out of ignorance), yet on this try - WE HAD WIGGLERS! So cool.

Within a few days all wigglers disappeared...I witnessed the female scooping them up but couldn't locate where she might have put them.

Saturday is water change day and sure enough last night, my husband said,"they laid eggs on he back of the tank." I really do need to give them a better surface.

I will go through that thread that Andy shared, and maybe "Goldy" needs a new home, but to my knowledge he/she is kept at bay by Dad Angel.

Any immediate guidance is welcomed and well appreciated.

Thanks for letting me share.

The first mistake is putting the algae eater in there with the pair. Get it out as it will eat the eggs at night ( this may have been why you kept losing them at night. ) Keep nothing but the pair in the tank.

As for getting them something to spawn on, unless you plan on raising the fry independent from the parents, on the glass is fine. That's better than on a heater tube or filter intake tube. (I had a pair that spawned on the glass right where the background paper had a picture of a sword plant. They don't know the difference. )

As for the missing wigglers, as soon as they all hatch, the parents instinctively move them around to protect them from potential danger. They could be ANYWHERE!! You just need to step back from the tank and watch the parents. They will eventually go to where the fry are stashed.
When you are done with the Wigglers thread , this is my thread about building a hatchery and breeding my Angels: https://www.aquariumadvice.com/foru...-a-hatchery-and-everything-angels-324616.html

 

[Figuringitout]

Listening to my instinct..

Thanks again, Andy. You confirmed my suspicions. I guess Goldy will have new roomies. I so appreciate your guidance.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks again, Andy. You confirmed my suspicions. I guess Goldy will have new roomies. I so appreciate your guidance.

The mistake most people make with breeders is thinking the pair needs a cleaner along. They are the problem more than the cure because most good cleaners clean at night when the pairs are asleep. I only started keeping bristlenose Plecos in with my breeders in this hatchery because I pull eggs and I check the tanks at least 3 times per day so the odds of them getting eggs before I do was slim. lol I also was breeding the Plecos so I was using very small fish. As soon as they got big enough to be a potential problem, they were replaced with another smaller pleco. The trick was getting them large enough that the Angels couldn't eat them but small enough that just a few eggs if they did get to them, filled them up.

 

[Figuringitout]

The mistake most people make with breeders is thinking the pair needs a cleaner along. They are the problem more than the cure because most good cleaners clean at night when the pairs are asleep. I only started keeping bristlenose Plecos in with my breeders in this hatchery because I pull eggs and I check the tanks at least 3 times per day so the odds of them getting eggs before I do was slim. lol I also was breeding the Plecos so I was using very small fish. As soon as they got big enough to be a potential problem, they were replaced with another smaller pleco. The trick was getting them large enough that the Angels couldn't eat them but small enough that just a few eggs if they did get to them, filled them up.

Andy, and all,

I am amidst another spawn and did remove the algae eater, so the pair has the tank all to themselves. Upon moving the algae eater, on the last spawn the female laid the eggs high up on the tank wall making it difficult for him to fertilize, as a large number of the eggs were white.

This time she laid the eggs lower on the wall, fascinating I find, and I also increased their diet with a higher protein for the last few weeks. She laid about 20% more eggs, not sure if it was diet or that she is more mature.

Today, I have wigglers and I noticed that some of the wigglers are from white eggs - is this fungus, as I thought that white eggs were not fertilized. I have been picking the white eggs off with the precision forceps, as I thought they were bum.

Should I expect fry within the next day or so with the temo about 83? Also, a few eggs fell off of the wall and she is trying to put them back on the wall - is there a chance the wigglers will make it on the aquarium floor?

Please advise. Thanks so much!

 

[Andy Sager]

The reason you got more eggs is from the diet. An older fish can still have small spawns when they are not fed a good pre spawn diet to get them into spawning shape.

If the parents are still there, they will do the work. Eggs can slip off. If they were fertilized, they will hatch anywhere in the tank. ( This is why you don't want any substrate in the tank so the eggs or fry food can't get lost in between the pieces. ) I doubt the wigglers are from the white eggs but the wigglers have a string that attaches them to whatever surface the egg was laid on so you probably got one that hatched and moved over to the white eggs before anchoring itself. While it's not the best to have any fungused eggs in with the wigglers, I've had no issues where it killed the fry so I would leave it. The parents are going to move the fry soon anyway. As for white eggs being good, I've not seen any Angelfish eggs from any color, including White Platinum and Albinos, that looked any different from any other color Angelfish. The fry could have hatched then turned white from either a fungus or natural death. As the pair gets used to spawning, they will do better jobs at picking off bad eggs and keeping the eggs clean. If you can post a picture of these white egg fry, I'd be interesting in seeing them.

At 83 degrees, the eggs should hatch within 72 hours of being fertilized. If there are still clear eggs after 72 hours, check your thermometer for accuracy. Eggs can take up to a week to hatch depending on the temperature. The warmer the water, the faster they hatch.

 

[Figuringitout]

The reason you got more eggs is from the diet. An older fish can still have small spawns when they are not fed a good pre spawn diet to get them into spawning shape.

If the parents are still there, they will do the work. Eggs can slip off. If they were fertilized, they will hatch anywhere in the tank. ( This is why you don't want any substrate in the tank so the eggs or fry food can't get lost in between the pieces. ) I doubt the wigglers are from the white eggs but the wigglers have a string that attaches them to whatever surface the egg was laid on so you probably got one that hatched and moved over to the white eggs before anchoring itself. While it's not the best to have any fungused eggs in with the wigglers, I've had no issues where it killed the fry so I would leave it. The parents are going to move the fry soon anyway. As for white eggs being good, I've not seen any Angelfish eggs from any color, including White Platinum and Albinos, that looked any different from any other color Angelfish. The fry could have hatched then turned white from either a fungus or natural death. As the pair gets used to spawning, they will do better jobs at picking off bad eggs and keeping the eggs clean. If you can post a picture of these white egg fry, I'd be interesting in seeing them.

At 83 degrees, the eggs should hatch within 72 hours of being fertilized. If there are still clear eggs after 72 hours, check your thermometer for accuracy. Eggs can take up to a week to hatch depending on the temperature. The warmer the water, the faster they hatch.

We have a handful of wigglers that I can see....thanks!

 

[Andy Sager]

Congrats

 

[Figuringitout]

Congrats

Andy, and all, here is where we are with our survivors. Based upon this how far to free swimming...?

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy, and all, here is where we are with our survivors. Based upon this how far to free swimming...?

At 83 degrees, you should expect them to be free swimming approx 4 days after hatching. You might want to try hatching a batch of brine shrimp eggs to see how long they take for you to hatch so you will have freshly hatched nuplii to feed the fry once they start swimming. Brine shrimp nuplii are their most nutritious up to 6 hours from hatching when they too still have a yolk sac they are absorbing. So you want to feed shrimp as close to freshly hatched as possible. Once you know how fast your shrimp will hatch, you can gauge when to start your shrimp batches. Make only enough for the one feeding. ( I made 3 bottles of eggs: 1 for the morning feeding, 1 for the afternoon feeding and 1 for the evening feeding. ) This is a pic of my shrimp hatching bottles:

 

[Figuringitout]

At 83 degrees, you should expect them to be free swimming approx 4 days after hatching. You might want to try hatching a batch of brine shrimp eggs to see how long they take for you to hatch so you will have freshly hatched nuplii to feed the fry once they start swimming. Brine shrimp nuplii are their most nutritious up to 6 hours from hatching when they too still have a yolk sac they are absorbing. So you want to feed shrimp as close to freshly hatched as possible. Once you know how fast your shrimp will hatch, you can gauge when to start your shrimp batches. Make only enough for the one feeding. ( I made 3 bottles of eggs: 1 for the morning feeding, 1 for the afternoon feeding and 1 for the evening feeding. ) This is a pic of my shrimp hatching bottles:

Thank you!