Need to upgrade?

[Super_Blueberry]

Alright. Quick recap before I get asked the same questions over and over....
100g planted tank (24" high). Miracle gro organic garden soil capped with white play sand. PPS Pro daily ferts minus the kno3 since my stock adds plenty of N. My phosphates are around 2ppm. 240 watts (6-40 watt 6500k bulbs) of t12no lights on a split cycle, 4 on. 5 off, 5 on, 10 off. Pressurized CO2.

Now my question. I'm not getting the growth I was hoping to see, especially down near the substrate. When I built my stand, I went with the t12's since they were the cheapest available, and I was over 2wpg. I'm thinking the light just is not intense enough to reach the bottom and that's my problem. If I was to bite the bullet and upgrade to a t5ho fixture with 6-54 watt bulbs (324 watts) would I see A: an increase in the light intensity near the bottom.... B: no increase at the substrate and have just a ton of light near the surface that will only cause algae problems without solving the main problem.... C: would a 4 bulb fixture (216 watts) change the substrate intensity without changing the upper level and thus be the way to go....or D:

Thanks as always

 

[dcutl002]

I got this off of the internet. It appears that the T12 is not that strong when compared to T5s.

• T12 = old and inefficient
• T8 = higher efficiency
• T5 = highest

In Comparison to the T12:

This isn't really relevant unless you are stocking up on the old T-12 bulbs, you may want to take the cost comparison into consideration. As the manufacturing of the bulbs cease, the cost of T12 bulbs will continue to increase due to declining supply.

• T8 = roughly 20% more expensive than T12
• T5 = 2-3 times the cost of T8

Comparing "Brightness" T8 vs. T5

The Department of Energy calls it "Brightness" (as does my 6 year old) but it is actually lumen output. This, among other factors is an important part of determining different levels of efficiency.
Two characteristics of light that we like to look at are Quality and Quantity. They are measured as follows:

• Quality: CRI = Color Rendering Index
• Quantity: LPW = Lumen's per Watt

So, what is the best light to use if the ceiling is lower than 12'?

Here's an average scenario:
CRI Levels:

T12=62 CRI
T8=85 CRI
T5=85 CRI
LPW Levels:

T12=78 LPW
T8=90 LPW
T5=99 LPW
In this scenario, the T5 would be the exact same quality and the increase in quantity would be insignificant. It would not be worth the money to invest in the T5 lighting when you consider having to replace the fixture, lamp and ballast.
Where SHOULD We Use The T5 Then?

As you can see in the above scenario, it is not always recommended that you switch from T8 to T5, but if you have the old T12 and must replace them with something, it would be best to go with the T5.

 

[Krogman]

If you haven't already, I would also look into led.

 

[schoeplein]

Darn good info, dcult. Got anything similar on LED's?

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[clarkm]

Look into LEDs

 

[Krogman]

Yea +1 nice info
You also want to look at PAR levels at different depths and widths for each fixture or lighting option.
The Build My Led website has a section called "science" that is a good read and informative of their led. Also they have PAR charts for their fixtures. this is the fixture I chose.

 

[Mr. Nowhere]

Here's some good led par explanations on allot of lights

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=160396

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[dcutl002]

Darn good info, dcult. Got anything similar on LED's?

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Yes, just like krogman said: look into www.buildmyled.com. If they are too expensive, then current USA or Finnex

 

[Super_Blueberry]

Does anyone else have any information on something other than led's?

 

[Super_Blueberry]

Are LED's the only way to get med-high lighting at 24" down?

 

[Mr. Nowhere]

No at least i highly doubt it t5s are quite powerful but u ll spend more on them then leds in the long run

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[Super_Blueberry]

Is my original plan of upgrading from 240 watts of t12no to 216 or 324 watts of t5ho capable of doing what I need?

(I don't care about the nickel/month savings of LED. In fact I'm only interested in LED if I can NOT do what I want with CFL)

 

[dcutl002]

AquaticLife makes a great T5HO light fixture. You may want to consider that while doing your research.

 

[Brian_Nano12g]

No at least i highly doubt it t5s are quite powerful but u ll spend more on them then leds in the long run

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+1 :: i couldn't agree more.

Is my original plan of upgrading from 240 watts of t12no to 216 or 324 watts of t5ho capable of doing what I need?

(I don't care about the nickel/month savings of LED. In fact I'm only interested in LED if I can NOT do what I want with CFL)

It's not so much the monthly savings on your electric bill, it's also the annual bulb replacements that are needed to keep fluorescent bulbs effective. It's way more expensive in the long run.

 

[Brian_Nano12g]

Here was a cost comparison I did concerning a 24" T5HO dual bulb fixture versus me opting to get 2 Current Satellite LED+ fixtures. I get medium light btw and inject CO2.

So "my personal" justification for LEDs... doing the math, if I were to go a dual T5, I'd probably go with the AquaticLife 24" for $99.99 (Amazon's current price) and swap out bulbs for two Giesemann (either 2 midday or mix in an AquaFlora for color) for $37. That's already at ~$136. Two Sat+ (24-36") lights would be about $183 (last time i checked), but I never have to replace the bulbs. I will make up the difference in 2 years of T5 bulb replacements, or even pay for itself (2x Sat+) in just 5 years (less if count the cost of the AquaticLife fixture + electricity consumption). If these lights truly last about the rated 50,000 hours and my photoperiod is about 7 to 8 hours a day, that's about 17 years of light! So to me, I think it's worth it. Plus, I recycle and hate dumping mercury bulbs in the landfills. More importantly, the results have been satisfactory for me with the basics: lights, co2, and ferts (pps-pro).

Edit:
Let's not overlook how much more appealing a sleek and modern LED fixture looks compared to a clunky t5 shop light sitting over a tank. It's fine and dandy if the tank was in, let's say, a fishroom or something. But in a living room where form maybe just as important as function, LEDs win in the aesthetics department hands down, IMO.

 

[Old Scales]

If you were to go with a 4 or 6 bulb T5HO the bulb replacement costs REALLY go up. And that's once a year. The XB series BML LED would give you light from medium to "burn it to the bottom high" with their dimmer. OS.

 

[Super_Blueberry]

Edit:
Let's not overlook how much more appealing a sleek and modern LED fixture looks compared to a clunky t5 shop light sitting over a tank. It's fine and dandy if the tank was in, let's say, a fishroom or something. But in a living room where form maybe just as important as function, LEDs win in the aesthetics department hands down, IMO.

As you can see, it's all enclosed. It doesn't matter what the fixture looks like because you never see it.

The annual $25 cost of replacing bulbs will take over 10 years to make up the difference of purchasing a large enough LED fixture today. And I did the math on my own....the t12no's I have now cost me under $5/mo to run. The R.O.I. is just too far out for me to justify an LED purchase UNLESS that is the only way to get the results I'm looking for.

I'm going in circles here......

 

[Brian_Nano12g]

To my understanding T12 are good for low light (unless you add way more bulbs than you would with t5ho + good reflectors).. probably why you aren't stratified with the growth right now. T5HO and LED do a way better job of focusing light down to substrate -- especially considering optics of LED and reflector quality of t5ho. Not all LED or t5ho are created equal. Reflectors can make a big deal in efficiency. For example, a dual bulb T5HO with a highly reflective parabolic German grade reflector over "each bulb" will outperform a 3 to 4 bulb fluorescent fixture with no to poor reflectors (i.e. 1 reflector over multiple bulbs versus individual bulbs). These are all important to consider when your goal is higher light, or PAR, all the way down to the substrate.

My math was based on my 24" long ADA 60p tank. And my compassion was directly to your criteria of wanting higher light and this comment quoted below. So yes, t5ho with high quality reflectors will be capable to focus light all the way down to your substrate -- but at a cost because t5's should be replaced annually.

... upgrade to a t5ho fixture with 6-54 watt bulbs (324 watts)

Further, another negative of running high light with t5ho in an enclosed canopy may get hot and increase your water temperature. Don't know where you live, so this can be a factor or not depending how hot your ambient temp gets in the summer. By comparison, LED wins in this regard as well as less energy is wasted via heat.

 

[Brian_Nano12g]

Check this thread out to help you calculate PAR (low, medium, high light) at the distance from light to substrate. Number of bulbs and reflector quality are considered. One thing to note, WPG doesn't matter in the context of T5HO or LED.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1038305#post1038305

Here's what I was able to achieve with medium light LED, CO2, and ferts. Whether you go T5HO or LED is your prerogative. Good luck.

2 Months of growth... Before and After!

 

[schoeplein]

Jeez. Two months. How often are you having to trim things? I'm looking into an LED kit myself - long term cost, efficiency, quantity and quality of light, and heat are all factors. 36" front, 24" tall.

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