Am I being impatient?

[JeanMarieNH]

Hi all!! This is my first post on Aquarium Advice. So, I'm wondering if I'm being impatient. Firstly, let me start by saying, I've made some mistakes. I set up my 45 gallon tank a bit over a month ago with live sand as the substrate. I am afraid that all of this bacteria probably died because it had no ammonia to eat. (mistake #1?) So, blindly going along, I added some bacteria starter (mistake #2?) and left it run for 8 days and added 4 (somewhat big) fish (african cichlids) that I got from my neice thinking I'd be good to go with that live sand! So anyway, as to be expected, the ammonia starts to rise. (I have an Eheim 2213 canister filter) I had a bit of ammonia remover chips in my filter so it hovered at about 2.0 ppm for a long time without rising. I was going along and doing 10% water changes daily and then at my LPS I got lectured that I was changing the water too much and that it would never cycle. I had some scum coming out of my filter outlet so had to take the canister apart and clean it out. Probably set the clock back at ZERO on the cycle as a result. I took the ammonia remover out. And the ammonia started to rise. Last night it was at 4.0 ppm with no evidence of Nitrite or Nitrate. Ph is steady at 8.1 or 8.2. This has all happened over the course of 3.5 weeks. (Meaning I added the fish 3.5 weeks ago. ) What I want to know is the following:
1) Am I simply being impatient?
2) SHOULD I do daily 10% water changes?
3) SHOULD I put some ammo remover chips back into the filter?
4) When I have to open the filter and mess around in there, does it make me start at the beginning again?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
THANKS!!!
-jean

 

[jcolon]

Hi all!! This is my first post on Aquarium Advice. So, I'm wondering if I'm being impatient. Firstly, let me start by saying, I've made some mistakes. I set up my 45 gallon tank a bit over a month ago with live sand as the substrate. I am afraid that all of this bacteria probably died because it had no ammonia to eat. (mistake #1?) So, blindly going along, I added some bacteria starter (mistake #2?) and left it run for 8 days and added 4 (somewhat big) fish (african cichlids) that I got from my neice thinking I'd be good to go with that live sand! So anyway, as to be expected, the ammonia starts to rise. (I have an Eheim 2213 canister filter) I had a bit of ammonia remover chips in my filter so it hovered at about 2.0 ppm for a long time without rising. I was going along and doing 10% water changes daily and then at my LPS I got lectured that I was changing the water too much and that it would never cycle. I had some scum coming out of my filter outlet so had to take the canister apart and clean it out. Probably set the clock back at ZERO on the cycle as a result. I took the ammonia remover out. And the ammonia started to rise. Last night it was at 4.0 ppm with no evidence of Nitrite or Nitrate. Ph is steady at 8.1 or 8.2. This has all happened over the course of 3.5 weeks. (Meaning I added the fish 3.5 weeks ago. ) What I want to know is the following:
1) Am I simply being impatient?
2) SHOULD I do daily 10% water changes?
3) SHOULD I put some ammo remover chips back into the filter?
4) When I have to open the filter and mess around in there, does it make me start at the beginning again?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
THANKS!!!
-jean

First off welcome to AA and kudos for being open about your situation.

So I'll start off with an AA words of wisdom ... never listen to what they say at an LFS. Members will tell you to be vigilant on PWC's and stay patient.
I've never heard of the more experienced members ever talk about adding ammo remover to filters ... that's where your vigilance on PWC's comes in controlling ammo spikes.

IMO as long as the filter material stayed wet, that shouldn't have reset the cycle to zero. What would set you back is if you replaced the filter media with a new, or you rinsed any part of the filter with chlorinated tap water.

 

[JeanMarieNH]

THANK YOU jcolon for my first ever thread response on AA!

My most recent filter opening - the media stayed wet. (phew!) And I only rinse things in aquarium water anyway, so phew! again!

So taking the ammo remover chips out of the filter is the right thing to do?
And should I do 10% water changes DAILY? Or every other? Or.....?
The fish were looking unhappy last night so I did a bigger one - 25%.
I've been using Colonize bacteria starter from Dr.Foster&Smith. Is that OK? I hear mixed reviews on using a bacteria starter.

I probably sound so helpless, but at this point I have heard so many different "right" ways to do this I'm all confused.

 

[rich311k]

Take the ammonia chips out, do water changes as much as need to keep ammonia and nitrite levels under .25ppm if possible.

 

[JeanMarieNH]

Is there a point where too frequent water changes significantly slows down the first cycling process? I know I started my tank all wrong, but what am I looking at here.... there has been ammonia evident for 3 weeks.... anyone have any idea when I could start seeing Nitrites? Just so I know there's a light at the end of the tunnel? THANKS!

 

[eco23]

Is there a point where too frequent water changes significantly slows down the first cycling process? I know I started my tank all wrong, but what am I looking at here.... there has been ammonia evident for 3 weeks.... anyone have any idea when I could start seeing Nitrites? Just so I know there's a light at the end of the tunnel? THANKS!

The actual water contains virtually no beneficial bacteria (just a couple floating around). Doing pwc's is not harmful to the cycle and is mandatory to keep the levels within a reasonably safe range for your fish.

This guide will be your (and your fishes) best friend the next few weeks
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...-but-i-already-have-fish-what-now-116287.html

Welcome to AA!

 

[Coleallensmom]

You've gotten some good advice. Stick with your PWCs as any amount of ammonia over .25ppm can harm your fish. Do you have a reliable testing kit to test your water parameters?

 

[eco23]

I would also have to recommend against using any cycling products. While they can get your levels moving (in a very odd way most times) they tend to produce a much less stable bio-filter in the long run. I'd stick with the guide I linked and grow your own beneficial bacteria in a natural way.

All you need is a bucket (or a Python water changer) and a big bottle of Seachem Prime.

 

[JeanMarieNH]

Thanks Coleallensmom and Eco23.

Yes, I am using an API Master Test Kit. I think that's as reliable as you can get, yes?

Eco23 - I've not used Seachem Prime before, but everyone (not on here) has advised me thus far not to use this type of product in my tank's initial cycle... I've only been removing the chlorine and chloramines from my tap water. Thoughts??

 

[eco23]

Thanks Coleallensmom and Eco23.

Yes, I am using an API Master Test Kit. I think that's as reliable as you can get, yes?

Eco23 - I've not used Seachem Prime before, but everyone (not on here) has advised me thus far not to use this type of product in my tank's initial cycle... I've only been removing the chlorine and chloramines from my tap water. Thoughts??

Some people are uneducated and believe that because Prime binds with the ammonia and makes it non toxic for 24-36 hours that it starves the beneficial bacteria...this isn't true. Although the ammonia is temporarily converted, it is still readily available and will be consumed by the beneficial bacteria. The effect of neutralizing the ammonia for that period is also obviously beneficial for the fish between water changes.

And yep, API is as good as it gets unless you want to drop a couple hundred dollars. Just make sure you follow the directions in the booklet closely...not just on the bottles .

 

[daileene]

Hi. Welcome to AA.

Seachem Prime is a water conditioner. It helps eliminates chlorine, chloramines and such and detoxify nitrites and nitrates. It is thus by far the most recommended water conditioner here in AA. It will not harm your cycle. It will even help.

And coleallensmom is right about ammonia and nitrite level more than 0.25ppm is detrimental to your fishes. You have to check it more often because having fish already in the tank while cycling fluctuates the ammonia level each time because of their poop and extra food not eaten. Once it raises more than 0.25ppm, do a water change. Sometimes you have to do more than 2 PWC a day just to put the level down. Like for example, if you have 1ppm of ammonia, doing 1 50% PWC will lower down the ammonia to 0.50ppm, doing another 50%PWC will lower it down to 0.25ppm.

Just my humble opinion. I have done the same mistake before as well, so I definitely know what you are experiencing.

Chin up! There are so many experts over here who are willing to help.

 

[JeanMarieNH]

Eco23 - when I looked up Seachem Prime online it says it also removes Nitrites and Nitrates. Isn't this something I do NOT want to do?? Seeing as the tank hasn't completed a cycle yet??

And, also, seeing as I've already treated the water in my tank for Chlorine and Chloramines..... if I were to start using Seachem Prime, do I need to do a HUGE water change (say 50%; 22.5 gallons) and put enough Seachem Prime in for 22.5 gallons?

Gosh, I sound stupid. I just really don't want to screw anything (else) up without realizing I'm screwing it up. LOL!

 

[JeanMarieNH]

daileene - thank you as well! I still want to understand about Seachem Prime and the nitrites and nitrates, though. You used the word "detoxify" - so they are still IN the water, just the chemical make up of them has been changed so they aren't poisonous to the fish? The appropriate bacteria can still eat/process the ammonia and the nitrite..... and I do the water changes to get rid of the nitrate, yes? Does this mean anything long term - will this result in my tank being chemically dependent? THANKS for the kind words. I know I'm not alone in this!!

 

[eco23]

daileene - thank you as well! I still want to understand about Seachem Prime and the nitrites and nitrates, though. You used the word "detoxify" - so they are still IN the water, just the chemical make up of them has been changed so they aren't poisonous to the fish? The appropriate bacteria can still eat/process the ammonia and the nitrite..... and I do the water changes to get rid of the nitrate, yes? Does this mean anything long term - will this result in my tank being chemically dependent? THANKS for the kind words. I know I'm not alone in this!!

You've got the right idea that it the ammo, no2 and no3 and temporarily neutralized, yet still available for the bacteria to consume. Virtually all the experienced members use Prime and recommend it to anyone who is cycling. It will help the process and help your fish survive the ordeal.

By doing the necessary daily pwc's (as shown in the article I linked) the nitrAtes will be lowered on their own. NitrAtes are the absolute least of your worries. They are toxic at very high levels, but you won't come remotely close to the danger area any time soon.

Once the tank cycles...the only chemical you will have to use is a dechlorinator (like Prime) during your weekly maintenance and pwc'snneverything else takes care of itself

 

[eco23]

Eco23 - when I looked up Seachem Prime online it says it also removes Nitrites and Nitrates. Isn't this something I do NOT want to do?? Seeing as the tank hasn't completed a cycle yet??

And, also, seeing as I've already treated the water in my tank for Chlorine and Chloramines..... if I were to start using Seachem Prime, do I need to do a HUGE water change (say 50%; 22.5 gallons) and put enough Seachem Prime in for 22.5 gallons?

Gosh, I sound stupid. I just really don't want to screw anything (else) up without realizing I'm screwing it up. LOL!

You can dose Prime up to (I believe) 3x the recommended dose in an emergency situation. I do my pwc's different because I use a water changer and add raw tap water directly to the tank. When I change water, I add the dosage recommended for the entire volume of the tank, not just the water I'm replacing. I'd just follow the guide, do your daily pwc's until the cycle completes and add the manufactures suggested amount of Prime during each pwc.

 

[JeanMarieNH]

I use a water changer too.... so you think it best if I use enough for all 45 gallons for every water change? Or only when the water change is more than 25%? or...? Thank you for being so attentive!!! At least what you're telling me is making sense to me. Much of the advice I got locally simply went against my better judgement which is why I kept seeking out new advice.

 

[eco23]

I use a water changer too.... so you think it best if I use enough for all 45 gallons for every water change? Or only when the water change is more than 25%? or...? Thank you for being so attentive!!! At least what you're telling me is making sense to me. Much of the advice I got locally simply went against my better judgement which is why I kept seeking out new advice.

Happy to help . First, remember the lfs wants to sell you things. Unfortunately many of them don't value fish as living animals as we do on the site. Those 99 cent fish they recommend to cycle the tank adds up on their bottom line pretty quickly.

If you use a Python or Aqueon water changer (there might be other brands?), turn off you filter...drain the amount of water (usually 50% while cycling)...add the amount of Prime according to the volume of the tank (I'd add an entire capful in your case, that's for 50 gallons), swish it around real good to spread it out through the tank, refill the tank and turn the filter back on after a few minutes.

 

[daileene]

you are welcome. and +1 in all eco's advice....

 

[eco23]

There is no set % of pwc's needed during a fish in cycle. Your ammo and no2 will dictate how much and how often to change the water. The goal is to keep it under .25 at all times. The Prime will detoxify it for 24 hours if it climbs higher...but .25 is the rule to go by.

 

[JeanMarieNH]

50% this time - but smaller % on an ongoing basis until the cycle completes, yes? Poor fishies - we humans sure do put them through a lot! Especially us not-quite-fully-educated ones. (I am referring, of course, to myself!) Do you mind if I keep you posted as to my progress?