Fishless Cycle Problem

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Hello,

Thank you for coming to read my post!

Having a little problem where the tank seems to be stalling in the nitrogen cycle. In a nutshell, I'm adding ammonia to 5ppm then watching Nitrate rise to around 5ppm, Nitrate also seems to increase but its hard to sure with API Master. Tap water is around 40ppm slightly less and the difference between 40ppm and 80ppm on the API master chart for Nitrate is very difficult to detect but alas it definitely gets darker so there must be some nitrobacter going on there to convert Nitrite to Nitrate?

It just stalls, once Ammonia dips to about 2/3ppm and Nitrite just stays high and then nothing changes!

I had been messing with PH using PH down, my water is as hard as nails so I had to put a lot of PH down (API) into the tank which created a soapy looking troth on the top. Anyway, got major PH rebound and it just rebounded to even higher than before. After reading up and speaking to people I was advised to forget the PH for now. It was around 8.0 out of the tap. Anyway, I thought all the PH down in the tank might have stalled it. So I did a 90% WC.

After 90% WC, ammonia down to .25ppm and nitite almost gone completely. Started again with 9-10% pure ammonia, just added enough to get ammonia to 4ppm. Same thing happened, ammonia reduces slightly, Nitite has stabilised again around 4ppm.

Taking so long! I had the tank at 30C (86F) to help the process. A week ago I reduced temp to 26C (79F) and added some ferns. No idea what kind, maybe someone can tell me from the pic please.

Flow is good, tank cycling ten times an hour aprox, air pump in place with air line so plenty of oxygen for bacteria. PH high due to water hardness and crap tap water like I said. Was 8.1, now 7.8 after introduction of plants.

My filter media contains that came with tank:

• sponge / wool stuff
• bio balls
• bio rings
• activated carbon

Adjustments I made today: (pic attached)

• Moved sponge to intake area (to stop organic matter clogging bio rings)
• Removed activated carbon (contentious topic, some seem to think it might slow cycling down)
• Added tons of bio rings to increase surface area. Before there were only 3 bio rings, opps!! You can see there are many more now

.

So I started adding pure ammonia into the tank back on the 22nd Feb. Any tips to help me along here woudl be most appreciated.

I dont know anyone with a mature tank that I can seed from unfortunately. The ammonia is proper pure (well 9-10%) purpose for fishless cycling not anything else.

Sorry typing diarrhoea, hope that isnt too much info!!

 

[spiketooth]

Have you tried to get some media or gravel from the lfs?

 

[librarygirl]

So how long have you been cycling? How long have nitrites been high?

I suspect that the PH fluctuations are causing some issues; it's best not to mess with it; most fish can adapt to your PH anyway so it's best to leave it alone. Prolonged high nitrites can also stall things; the water change was a good idea and it's normal to have nitrites shoot up again. If they go off-chart for longer than a week, do another full water change to get them down; same if PH starts to drop. I think once the PH stabilizes a bit you'll see more movement, give it a few more days and see if ammonia starts to convert faster. The more you mess with/change things (PH, temp, filters etc) the more the bacteria have to keep re-adjusting. Just let it do it's thing.

Also I just read your other post on the size of the tank; since it's so small you can get away with dosing to 2 ppms of ammonia instead of 4. A tank that small can't hold much anyway (a single betta, maybe some shrimp if it tolerates it, or/and a small snail like a nerite) so dosing to 2 ppms of ammonia is more than sufficient.

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Bacteria In A Bottle

Have you tried to get some media or gravel from the lfs?

Hi, I went to a LFS today, they said no. It was an amazing shop with about 50 tanks very beautiful and you could really tell they knew what they were doing.

Get this though, they suggested 'FilterStart' from JBL. Now I know people on the forum here are advised against it. And I explained all the science behind why to the expert in the shop. He said he'd been running the store for many years and explained it really does work despite what people say.

Well the proof will be in the pudding. I bought some and added it to the filter media.

We shall see . . . .

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

PH Fluctuations / Shrimp / Nitrogen Cycle

So how long have you been cycling? How long have nitrites been high?

I suspect that the PH fluctuations are causing some issues; it's best not to mess with it; most fish can adapt to your PH anyway so it's best to leave it alone. Prolonged high nitrites can also stall things; the water change was a good idea and it's normal to have nitrites shoot up again. If they go off-chart for longer than a week, do another full water change to get them down; same if PH starts to drop. I think once the PH stabilizes a bit you'll see more movement, give it a few more days and see if ammonia starts to convert faster. The more you mess with/change things (PH, temp, filters etc) the more the bacteria have to keep re-adjusting. Just let it do it's thing.

Also I just read your other post on the size of the tank; since it's so small you can get away with dosing to 2 ppms of ammonia instead of 4. A tank that small can't hold much anyway (a single betta, maybe some shrimp if it tolerates it, or/and a small snail like a nerite) so dosing to 2 ppms of ammonia is more than sufficient.

Hiya Library Girl,

Thanks for replying. The Ph fluctuations only happened once after weeks of getting nowhere. I have resolved not to try that again, and since then, still no progress. I agree with you PH changes can upset the bacteria, but as it was only once, and a 90% WC happened next day I think it maybe something else. After all, these issues seem to be the same either side of me adding the PH down solution.

Perhaps lack of surface area on the media or lack of food for the bacteria. Dont they need phosphorus or something to eat (beside the ammonia / Nitrite of course)

Some people say sprinkle a tiny amount of fish food to achieve this, do I have that right? I have added tons of bio rings to replace carbon so maybe that will help. Though all the good bacteria on the carbon will be lost. Another mistake

Thanks for advice on ammonia quantities. I wil stuck to 2ppm. I have decided then to go with Shrimp. I understand they produce far less ammonia is that true?

Many thanks for your time

p.s. added some filterstart, see if that helps, I hear opposite opinons about these, but just have to see.

 

[armymp327]

just to add about the phosphorus questions, no bacteria do not need phosphorus, some people add fish food instead of ammonia, because the food will rot and create ammonia

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Thanks for clarifying. Other than getting PH within sensible range,having Ammonia / Nitrite for the bacteria to feed on, plus the temperature and surface area for the bacteria with water passing over the surface, are there any other conditions to be aware of?

 

[armymp327]

your PH is fine, i myself have 8.2 (8.0 in the tank because of my driftwood) and my fish have been doing fine for years.

everything else looks fine to me

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

LFS

Hi, I went to a LFS today, they said no. It was an amazing shop with about 50 tanks very beautiful and you could really tell they knew what they were doing.

Get this though, they suggested 'FilterStart' from JBL. Now I know people on the forum here are advised against it. And I explained all the science behind why to the expert in the shop. He said he'd been running the store for many years and explained it really does work despite what people say.

Well the proof will be in the pudding. I bought some and added it to the filter media.

We shall see . . . .

THE JBL made no difference what so ever!

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Well guys, I added my water and ammonia on the 15th February. I am starting to get really bored with the Nitrogen cycle. I really dont know what I am doing wrong.

Change I made which could potentiality stall cycle?:
- Two or maybe three 90% WC (as I wanted to clean out PH down and another time because of algae)
- One time I did a 100% WC, changed gravel for expensive aquarium soil which feeds plants and lowers PH.
- I was told by LFS expert that only 1% of the bacteria is in the substrate so long as I dont change filter media bacteria should be happy.
- I just 5 mins ago, washed filter wool only in a cup of tank water as it was saturated with mud from the new aquarium soil
- I confess I repeated the process 3 times as the filter wool was so dirty (with sediment)
- I added some JBL filter start which made NO difference some days ago

Here is the new substrate:
Colombo Florabase substrate review | Features | Practical Fishkeeping

Could these water changes have stalled the cycle?
Could lowering of the temp from 30C / 86F and the intro of plants have stalled the cycle?
Will the washing of the filter in tank water (in a large cup) stall the cycle?

I am presently at 2PPM ammonia, 0.5PPM Nitrite (after 100% WC two days ago). Nitrate is between 40 and 80 PPM. Temp is 26C / 79F. Id have it higher but I have plants in there now.

I have added drift wood too. Its a 12L (3.2G) tank. Ye small I know. You can see pictures of the filter media above, I have TONS of bio rings in there for the bacteria. I mean do I need to put a sign on the door saying PLEASE BACTERIA THIS WAY !! Is there like a mantra I have to chant perhaps?

Thank you for helping me! One day I can help others

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

phosphates for bacteria

just to add about the phosphorus questions, no bacteria do not need phosphorus, some people add fish food instead of ammonia, because the food will rot and create ammonia

Hi Armymp327,

According to ECO23 - with his 6,000+ posts - the bacteria do need phosphates:

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...guide-and-faq-to-fishless-cycling-148283.html

See section: 3, F, J

Would be good to clarify as I am heading for two months in and still cant seem to cycle my tank :-(

Thanks

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

It could be the tank is phosphorus deficient? I found this scientific explanation:

All species of nitrifying bacteria require a number of micronutrients. Most important among these is the need for phosphorus for ATP (Adenosine Tri-Phosphate) production. The conversion of ATP provides energy for cellular functions. Phosphorus is normally available to cells in the form of phosphates (PO4). Nitrobacter, especially, is unable to oxidize nitrite to nitrate in the absence of phosphates.

Based on that, i think armymp327's advice is wrong, and some springled fish food on the filter media would help.

Could someone with more knowledge and experience than me (which isnt hard hehe) please qualify that

Many Thanks

 

[armymp327]

Well I had never heard of that, when I did my first fish less cycle I added nothing but ammonia and I cycled fine in 5 weeks, and my water has no phosphates according to my city's water quality reports

 

[spiketooth]

bacteria needs phosphate. When people use fish food to cycle there tank. Its does not only product ammo when it breaks down but phosphate as well.

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Soon as I added the fish food I was away for five days. When I came back I was extremely pleased to find after nearly THREE months nitrosomonas had consumed all the ammonia

Just waiting for Nitrobacter to get its act together and eat all the nitrite now. Nitrate is sky high so it's clearly present.

Clearly the fish food did the trick for stage one tho. PH has dropped from 8.3 to 6.5 partly due to new substrate and partly so I read because the nitrifying bacteria produce acid and eat the buffer.

Will do a 50%WC to replace the buffer and drag the PH up a bit

Thanks for all the help everyone

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Just did a 100% water change (minus the water in the substrate and small filter). Nitrite is still off the API scale. I tested the water before adding it to make sure it was Nitrite free, and it registered free of Nitrite.

I can add as much ammonia as I like now, it returns to zero within 12 hours. I think to keep it alive I have fed it ammonia to up to 8ppm for about two weeks, but the nitrite never drops off.

I have mixed 3 parts tap water to one part tank water for the API chemical test and its STILL off the scale. So I am essentially testing a sample with 75% dilution and its still off the scale (api). Very weird.

Any tips?

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

Well I just took 20ML of tap water (0ppm Nitrite). I then added 5ML of tank water. So I have 25ML in a test tube. I then mix the water up and extract 5ML for testing purposes. So the sample is then diluted 4:1. API Nitrite test then registered 0.5PPM. So as it was diluted 4 times, I believe it would be 0.5PPM x 4 = 2PPM. So it would appear the water has 2PPM of Nitrite after a more or less 100% WC.

I have two questions:
- Has anyone else experienced this
- Does anyone else find the API master kit difficult to discern at the higher levels for Nitrite and Nitrate.

Thanks for reading . . .

 

[Rmckoy]

When I cycled my 70 gal I added raw shrimp .
But also used nitrification bacteria ( colony)
I didn't see the nitrite stage of the cycle and it went from high ammonia to nitrate .
During the cycle I was to the understanding to let nature do its job and leave it alone and be patient .
It takes time waiting for the beneficial bacteria to grow enough to consume nitrite and change of to nitrate .

 

[The sea monkeys Rock]

When I cycled my 70 gal I added raw shrimp .
But also used nitrification bacteria ( colony)
I didn't see the nitrite stage of the cycle and it went from high ammonia to nitrate .
During the cycle I was to the understanding to let nature do its job and leave it alone and be patient .
It takes time waiting for the beneficial bacteria to grow enough to consume nitrite and change of to nitrate .

It took over 50 days in the end, its now fully cycled. I was reading about the bacteria nictrobacter, seems it only divides every 7 hours aprox under perfect conditions, but more realistically about once a day. That is very slow indeed for bacteria. So anyway, bottom line was, patience, well that and adding phosphorus to help give the bacteria energy to divide.

 

[Mebbid]

a little bit of fish food will help with the cycling in my experience although it isn't always needed. Using some seeded media is the fastest way by far will help speed things up a lot. Using some gravel and bits of filter pad I managed to cycle a 29g tank in 2 weeks. Just keep at it, they will grow eventually. You might be having issues with the rapid changes in PH causing issues with the bacteria. Also dosing ammonia up to 8ppm might be causing more issues with the nitrogen cycle. You can get by with dosing up to 4ppm daily with ammonia and not worrying about the bacteria starving. That will also cause the insane levels of nitrites you're having to be kept under control. Don't worry, you should be quite close to finished with your cycling