PPS Pro, Estimative Index, Etc

[JackBlasto]

I have read quite a bit over the last year about all these methods. Question, what is the ideal range that they are ALL trying to accomplish? I mean if you're dosing more and flushing out 50% at the end of the week using one method or dosing less and doing smaller water changes, basically it's all getting to the same place I figure. So what is this equilibrium amount all the systems are aiming for?

Nitrates between 10 and 20 ppm
Phosphates between 1 and 2 ppm
Potassium between 10 and 20 ppm
Iron between 0.1 and 1 ppm
Calcium around 16 ppm
Magnesium around 2.5 ppm

???

The reason I'm asking is for 1) Curiosity and 2) Everyones always wondering when they're dosing the uptake of the plants and how much is being left and accumulating over time... So in theory, a BUNCH accumulates over time or a BUNCH gets consumed and you have a deficiency, so I was thinking if the water going IN was measured to the precise amounts above, and it went in on a routine basis using a drip water change system, then would I have the absolute perfect amounts continuously?

I know this is overkill and ridiculous but when I learn stuff I like to learn it inside and out so I am over thinking this and I am trying to conceptualize a perfect water content that leaves no guessing about uptake because water in the above amounts is being replaced daily so there is never a deficiency OR an abundance. In theory it would be the above amounts continuously. To further explain I am mixing dry ferts into pure RO water AND have a drip water change system on my tank. Overkill science experiment, yes, indeed. Now, I really would like documentation on the perfect ppms of waters necessary planted tank chemical makeup. haha... I know a lot of people might want to punch me probably for being WAY to ridiculous about this...

Pic1 RO water made in large amounts
Pic2 weighed and mixed
Pic3 Water goes UP from the basement with auto top off into the sump on first floor
Pic 4 the refugium style sump

Whole thing dripping about 10 gallons a day out and 10 gallons a day coming in

 

[flitabout]

I just found this and now I am curious how is it going?

 

[JackBlasto]

It's going well. I have eliminated all my algae (except small amount of bba ugh… but it's VERY slow growing and I'm assuming is a low CO2 issue ). My theory that if the water is mixed correctly going in, it will stay correct and stable on water changes because the water coming in is precise. I mean PPS Pro, estimative index, etc all assume you're using tap water and since everyones tap water is different all the theories are different for everyone so I'm still trying to find out what PPS pro, etc are actually aiming for in a given day in your tank. I mean EI wants to overdose and then flush at the end of the week to reset… Well, what's it resetting to? It's resetting to whatever your tap water is which is an unknown for the most part and leaves you guessing just the same as any other fertilization technique as far as I can see. I am still trying to find the precise flat water parameters of a perfect planted tank but I feel I'm close and am still way open to any thoughts on the perfect nutrient mix. I did find someone else trying to collect data like me and they came up with the graph I posted here although I'm sticking what I posted in the above post I did.

Now for the maintenance It's not terribly bad. Yes, I mix water but is that hard, no. I do it every week when most people would be carrying buckets full of water and doing water changes I am carrying tablespoons of nutrients, weighed carefully and mixing them in a trash can. The whole process takes about 10 minutes and that is my water upkeep for the week.

I have just invested in a float switch for trash can one that pulls water from trash can two so that I don't have to refill trash can one through the week. I then have a sensor on trash can two that shuts it all down when that trash can runs close to empty so the pump feeding trash can one never runs dry. It also sends off an alarm and tells me that it's take to mix water. The whole thing changes 10 gallons of water 10% of my upstairs tank daily and the two cans can sustain the entire thing for a week.

A fun little project that has been frustrating at times but has also been very cool to figure out how to do. I will post pics when I get some of the float switch and trash can 1 to 2.

Thanks for your curiosity.

 

[JackBlasto]

P.S. Here's my summary of what I am using in my mix

Nitrates between 10 and 20 ppm
Phosphates between 1 and 2 ppm
Potassium between 10 and 20 ppm
Iron between 0.1 and 1 ppm
Calcium around 16 ppm
Magnesium around 2.5 ppm

and here's what I found someone else who was calculating a straight RO mix… Like I said earlier, I have stuck with my mix and haven't really adventured into what they were doing with theirs but I am glad to see someone else experimenting with it.

 

[JackBlasto]

A reason my mind really started dabbling in this was one.. Discus tank… two… lets say you do the Estimative Index method so you're overdosing EVERYTHING intentionally… Well, here comes the end of the week when you "reset" BUT you're reseting to your tap water which VERY WELL MIGHT have overdosed amounts of certain nutrients (phosphates etc) so you're resetting to a bad value and then overdosing on top of a failed reset. There are huge limitations in fertilizing methods because they are dosing fertilization off of unknowns and guessing. EVEN when doing EI, which claims to take guess work out but I think failing to reset every week is a failure as a whole when you end up with algae and then start guessing whats aloof. I don't see any point guessing and thus set out to create a water that is for plants mixed from scratch.

 

[JackBlasto]

so here's what all the work creates… tank, and a pic of the sump below.

 

[aqua_chem]

Is that HC on a log? How long have you had it on there? Is it attaching well?


I feel like I can clear up some of your confusion with EI, but unfortunately I'm not in a situation where I can really give a thoughtful response. I'll pop in later tonight with a more useful comment.

 

[flitabout]

That is awesome. It also makes sense for some one with water like mine. My tap is awful so I use Ro water for the tank and now I am using it in the house too. The one major thing I have found is that my tap water is ever changing. I don't have all of my number from the start because some of the test kits I didn't get until just recently but in August my water was what I considered perfect coming from the tap with numbers being
Ammo 0
Trites 0
trates 0
PH 7.4-7.6
All numbers I was very happy with. Not realizing that my tap would change so much I didn't start testing it again until October do to multiple fish deaths. In trying to find the cause as why all of my adult livebearers were dying. It was just the livebearers my cardinals were in awesome health and very active as were all of my fry from the livebearers. So I started testing everything. My tank numbers were ok not perfect but ok. I kept getting a .25 ammo reading and very high nitrates and it didn't seem to matter how many times I was changing the water or the amounts I just couldn't get the numbers down. I was dosing everyday with prime to keep the water safe for the fish. That is when I realized that tap will fluctuate a lot. In October my numbers were:
Ammo .5ppm
Trite 0ppm
trates 15 ppm
PH 8.8 maybe higher that is as high as the test goes
As of yesterday my water was testing at
Ammo 1 ppm
nitrite 1ppm
nitrate 40ppm
ph 7.8
Phosphate 2ppm
KH 15dkh or 268.5ppm
GH 30 dkh or 537ppm
So true EI dosing for tap like mine isn't an option But I think it is when using ro water. I think it goes to show that testing still needs to happen before dosing a tank with ferts to see what is actually needed in the tank rather than just blindly dumping in a certain amount of ferts without out know what it is that your tank really needs to keep it healthy and not turn it in to an algae farm.
So definitely keep us posted on your project!

 

[Rivercats]

I'm just curious if what your tank numbers are if you don't mind.

I've considered EI dosing before but honestly when people post what their levels are I back away again. Very recently on a post someone using El popped off that their nitrates were at least 100ppm and phosphates I "think" were 20ppm (or something close). On your one chart it has keeping nitrates under 110ppm and yet phosphates under 1ppm. I just can't see what the point is of having say nitrates at such high amounts when even in my 220 with very high light, CO2 and liquid carbon, could come close to using that amount. Plus IMO that is not healthy for fish, especially discus and rams just to name a couple. Not trying to get off subject here. But what are you shooting for... having excess nutrients which isn't good for discus or are you aiming for certain levels which is what I do with PPS-Pro dosing? I don't take extensive readings like you do tho.

 

[JackBlasto]

The HC is on a driftwood like log thing, correct. It came on a ten by ten mat so what I did (despite instruction to not do this BUT I had left them intact in the past and the roots never got out of the mat because they are so short) so I pulled the green metal grate off of the fiber bottom (separating the two, the wire from the fiber) very slowly. This in a sense destroyed the mats 10x10 square but also created a lot of great shapes with some HC being stuck to mesh and some being stuck to fiber. Now, the HC stuck to the actual wire mesh (and not the fiber) was what I was really wanting, with full roots exposed and this made bending the mesh a breeze to fit the log with the roots actually being pressed against the driftwood firmly. I cut these wire mesh shapes with wire cutters and cut it so that no wire was exposed anywhere. I've planted HC 3 times and never was successful getting the roots onto the object, thus why I risked the purchase and carefully removed the fiber.

The HC has been in there only two weeks so we will see what happens in the long run. Aquarium Plants .com actually sells HC attached to driftwood so I assumed if they were successful at it rooting that it had to be possible… granted time will tell and I'll be sure to let you know what the long run looks like. It has been pearling like crazy so far which is somewhat surprising because my tank pearls randomly with the other plants but that HC PEARLS non-stop the entire time the lights are on and in their entire sheets… so many many bubbles appearing VERY healthy. If it's gonna root to the driftwood this is my best chance.

 

[Rivercats]

The HC AquariumPlants.com grows and sells on rocks and DW is in it's emersed form. It doesn't always stay attached to those as it switches over to it's immersed form. I tried the rocks a couple times.

 

[JackBlasto]

testing still needs to happen before dosing a tank with ferts to see what is actually needed in the tank rather than just blindly dumping in a certain amount of ferts without out know what it is that your tank really needs to keep it healthy and not turn it in to an algae farm.
So definitely keep us posted on your project!

I am not smart about this stuff. I honestly look to aqua_chem and river cats as my voices of reason on here

I do have a theory that if there was any given correct method that worked all the time that everyone would simply use that method. The reason these methods aren't useable by everyone is because everyones tap water is different. I mean, EI is probably the most useable because it just says everything is low.

Now to answer River Cats, and what I'm going for… I'm not going for excess nutrients because I'm pre mixing it, so if it's in excess it will forever be in excess. There is no reset because it's being reset right back to the same pre mixed water. So my end game goal is a water mix that is what a nice established river would have in balance without resets of water etc.

I'm doing ten gallon water changes daily to avoid unmonitored build up of stuff in the water column but the key is I'm dosing the water prior to it going into the tank, with ten gallons going in/out, drip water change, and whatever the plants consume is replenished through the drip water changes with the same exact nutrient pre mix. No resets, no larger water changes weekly. A steady 10 gallons in and out daily, monthly, etc.

Thus what I'm going for is the balance of nutrients in that water change. Nothing extreme as far as overdosing nutrients but something to cover all the minimum bases. I think I've put that together more or less so I kind of just getting feedback and showing everyone what I'm doing at this point.

 

[JackBlasto]

I'm just curious if what your tank numbers are if you don't mind.

Nitrates between 10 and 20 ppm
Phosphates between 1 and 2 ppm
Potassium between 10 and 20 ppm
Iron between 0.1 and 1 ppm
Calcium around 16 ppm
Magnesium around 2.5 ppm

On your one chart it has keeping nitrates under 110ppm and yet phosphates under 1ppm. I just can't see what the point is of having say nitrates at such high amounts when even in my 220 with very high light, CO2 and liquid carbon, could come close to using that amount. Plus IMO that is not healthy for fish, especially discus and rams just to name a couple.

Agreed. I kind of wish I didn't post that graph. I found that graph online and just posted it to show someone else's attempt at dissecting water for RO. My research has lead me to use the numbers I posted above. I'm not using the graph.

 

[JackBlasto]

The HC AquariumPlants.com grows and sells on rocks and DW is in it's emersed form. It doesn't always stay attached to those as it switches over to it's immersed form. I tried the rocks a couple times.

Yeah, I've failed a lot in this hobby so we'll see what happens next I keep trying. I was pretty happy to see that it stuck to the mesh so I could bend it like sculpture after I pulled it apart. I'll let you know if it fails which is clearly possible.

 

[Rivercats]

I'll be curious to see if your numbers stay consistent over time or if your nutrient levels increase. Be sure to keep this updated as I'm following.

When it comes to technical explanation's and numbers it's Aqua_Chem's game all the way.

 

[Jkeating8]

I really wonder if nitrates are that bad for fish. My nitrates frequently rise over 80ppm. Phosphates are always at least 7ppm.

 

[Rivercats]

I really wonder if nitrates are that bad for fish. My nitrates frequently rise over 80ppm. Phosphates are always at least 7ppm.

Honestly I don't think it's good for them and fish like rams and many nano fish are very sensitive to nitrates. We do WC's to keep them below 20ppm so personally I don't get why a tank would need to be dosed that high when your adding more nitrates than your removing. I understand about having excess nutrients and correct me if I'm wrong but plants can only use "x" amount of ferts so having really high amounts of excess is just added pollution that isn't helping plants any and isn't good for our fish.

 

[Jkeating8]

Honestly I don't think it's good for them and fish like rams and many nano fish are very sensitive to nitrates. We do WC's to keep them below 20ppm so personally I don't get why a tank would need to be dosed that high when your adding more nitrates than your removing. I understand about having excess nutrients and correct me if I'm wrong but plants can only use "x" amount of ferts so having really high amounts of excess is just added pollution that isn't helping plants any and isn't good for our fish.

I agree that plants can only use x amount of nutrients. I'm going to experiment with PPS-Pro soon to see if I get different results in my fish and plants.

 

[JackBlasto]

The HC AquariumPlants.com grows and sells on rocks and DW is in it's emersed form. It doesn't always stay attached to those as it switches over to it's immersed form. I tried the rocks a couple times.

RiverCats, if I follow this right, you're saying that aquarium plants grows those things without fully submerging them?

Hmmmm, that seems pretty messed up seeing that everyone that would want them are most likely going to fully submerge them.

 

[aqua_chem]

A reason my mind really started dabbling in this was one.. Discus tank… two… lets say you do the Estimative Index method so you're overdosing EVERYTHING intentionally… Well, here comes the end of the week when you "reset" BUT you're reseting to your tap water which VERY WELL MIGHT have overdosed amounts of certain nutrients (phosphates etc) so you're resetting to a bad value and then overdosing on top of a failed reset. There are huge limitations in fertilizing methods because they are dosing fertilization off of unknowns and guessing. EVEN when doing EI, which claims to take guess work out but I think failing to reset every week is a failure as a whole when you end up with algae and then start guessing whats aloof. I don't see any point guessing and thus set out to create a water that is for plants mixed from scratch.

The 50% weekly water change prevents accumulation by creating a "steady state" whereby the maximum concentration of nitrates can't go above a certain point. Here is a graph generated from this calculator.

This is a graph of nitrate concentration using recommended EI dosing. If there is 0% nitrate uptake, then concentrations will reach a maximum of ~45 ppm. If you tap has ~45 ppm nitrate (a gross violation of EPA standards), then it will reach a maximum of ~75 ppm, assuming absolutely no plant uptake. At 50% uptake, you see a peak of a very reasonable 25 ppm, closer to ~50 ppm with 40 ppm tap, which is pretty reasonable considering your tap.

That being said, the premise of PPS is screwed a whole lot harder by excessive nutrient in the tap than EI is. If you have 40 ppm of tap nitrate, you could just cut nitrate from your regimen and call it good. PPS is shot at that point. Really, in that light, EI is better suited for situations where you have high tap nutrients as it's much more flexible.


Second, regarding your point about 'guessing' rather than relying on test kits.

First, something that a lot of people don't realize is that the accuracy/precision of our testing kits is really quite bad. There are technique errors inherent to liquid test kits (you need a calibration curve to have any degree of confidence in your numbers) and user error is probably more rampant than anyone appreciates. Therefore, any technique that relies extensively on test kits is difficult to properly apply. In that regard, techniques similar to PPS are much more limited than EI will ever be.

Second, the thinking behind EI challenges the entire premise of PPS. If PPS shoots to provide 100% nutrients per day, no more no less, than what happens if you have 120%? Not much, as we see in essentially every single non-PPS tank. If you have any nitrate or phosphate left day to day, then plants are getting 100% of their daily intake. However, algae have a much lower threshold of nutrients. Whereas a plant may need 1 ppm worth of nitrate per day, algae may need .01 ppm, allowing it to much more easily get its daily intake. Thus, it doesn't matter if you have 10 ppm or 100 ppm, everyone can get what they need. In that regard, PPS and EI achieve the same thing in the end: plants have 100% of nutrients at all time. The main difference is the 'steady state' mentioned above, where PPS strives to maintain much lower levels at the cost of simplicity, and EI takes the honey badger approach (ie, it doesn't care), eschewing the need for low nutrient at the cost of being extremely user friendly.

Essentially, it comes down to this question: is the complication/technicality of PPS worth the low nutrient accumulation? Inherent to this is another question: are high (really, only moderately high, mid 30s NO3, <10 phos) going to harm a tank? There are clearly situations where the answer is yes (eg, discus, SA breeding programs), but for the majority of situations, the answer is no (in my experience/opinion).

Oh dear, I appear to have babbled on a bit.