Ph dropping?

[Ringoffire]

I am in week 2 of a fish-in cycle with 2cory cats and 1 algae eater. Water parameters are typical for cycling: ammonia .25-.5, with water changes about every other day, nitrites still 0, nitrates 0. Treating with prime. My question is why has my Ph been on a steady decline from day one. Started at 7.6 today at 6.4. It's been a gradual fall but is there something I'm doing wrong and is it harmful to the fish?

 

[jaguargod]

My pH dropped several times throughout my cycling, but I did fishless. From what I read, pH fluctuations can be a normal part of the cycling process, due to the chemcial reactions involved. Water changes should help. If your ph doesn't go back up after the WC, or if it immediately drops again, maybe you do have something more serious going on. You may also want to do second tests if you get a low reading. There have been two times that I tested and got a low reading and freaked out. After a second test, it was normal both times. This was after my cycle completed and I had added fish, but I'd recommend retesting it anyway for peace of mind.

 

[threnjen]

What is your tap pH after 24 hours? (put out a glass of water and stir occasionally for 24hrs) I'm surprised about seeing this decline when you do such frequent water changes.

 

[ScotJudd]

I would check the Kh of your tap water. If it is 3 or under then your Ph will be susceptible to Ph swings. I keep mine at Kh6 and Ph sits about 7 and only drifts down a little through the day - I use pressurised Co2 and without a Kh of at least 6 the Ph falls heavily through the day.

 

[tnfinfan]

Sounds like poorly buffered water. Are you mixing water (distilled plus tap) or do you have a water softener in your house? May need to use a buffering agent to stop the swings. If you don't have a kh test, get one and check it. Might be able to get it done free at the LFS.

 

[Hobgob]

Are you declorinating your water with prime or anything? I'm sorry if you already said this but I tried to read all the responses. If your not adding prime then the water is most likely gassing out in your tank like mentioned above with the glass of water. Your might not have many buffers in your water allowing it to swing easier. Are you using rodi water or anything like lthat? If you don't have many buffers something in your tank may be causing the ph swings and also like mentioned above ph swings are normal in a cycle sometimes this is why we check our ph to make sure it doesn't drop below 6 or it will stall the cycle.

 

[Ringoffire]

I do not have Kh tester, not even sure what Kh is. But I only use tap water treated with prime. What is considered a buffer? I Am very new to this so sorry if I'm asking dumb questions. Straight out of the tap the Ph was 6.8. Now sitting on the counter for about 15 hours it is still reading 6.8 maybe a tiny bit less. I have sand substrate, I think I read something about sand not being a good buffer but can someone explain it a little better to me.

 

[ScotJudd]

Hi RingOfFire.
This my understanding of Kh, Gh and buffers.
Kh is Carbonate hardness, sometimes referred to as temporary or alkaline hardness.
Gh is General hardness and refers in the main to the amount of calcium and minerals in the water - if your kettle furs up then Gh is high and water is hard and visa-versa.
But Kh is also a measure of the ability of the water to resist falling Ph, it buffers the water against Ph falling. Increasing the Kh will increase your Ph by default but a Kh of about 6ppm will protect your water from Ph crash (going towards Ph 6). If your tap water is Kh 0-3 then natural processes in the tank could cause wild Ph swings. Increasing the Kh above 6 will likely raise your Ph more towards 7.5 - 8. In most cases 6 is fairly ideal for both Kh and Gh.
So you should include Kh and Gh testing as part of your testing routine. These are not included in the API master test kit but bought seperately ( both tests are usually sold together).
If your Kh and/or Gh is low then post again with your tank capacity and test results and myself or someone on here will advise how to adjust and maintain healthy levels. Do not go out and buy buffers from your LFS, there are very effective and cheaper alternatives.
I keep my tank at Ph 7.2, Kh 6, Gh 6 which suits my tetras and Cory's. These figures are also good for beneficial bacteria on your filters and will help maintain the holy grail of ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate <20 ( with the help of regular partial water changes).
There is great emphasis on actual Ph figures but fish adapt well within a fairly wide range, but they don't like large swings of Ph.
So, check your tap and tank Kh and Gh and report back.
Finally, thank heavens I hear you say, different fish species prefer different ranges of Ph, Kh and Gh and it's a good idea to work with the most easily maintained levels and stock accordingly.
Hope that's of some help, or a start at least. Steve.

 

[Ringoffire]

Ok so tested and got this.
Straight from tap: Kh 20, Gh 0, ph 6.4
Glass sitting out for 20 hrs: Kh 40, Gh 0, ph 6.2
Tank: Kh 40, Gh 0, ph 6.2.
But just a note these results are from pool test strips, which I know are not perfect but I had them so just figured I'd start with that. Can get to the store tomorrow to get a liquid test kit.

 

[Ringoffire]

Just realized that 20 & 40 readings for Kh don't make much since but that's what it says on the bottle (ppm mg/L) I'll get the liquid test tomorrow and retest.

 

[tnfinfan]

You have very soft water.
https://www.google.com/search?q=car...szMkQeO3oDYBw&ved=0CCIQwg4oAA&biw=962&bih=553

On this chart, it shows your mg/l measurement and you'll see 20-40 is very low, wherever you are exactly. And you're correct that strips aren't the most accurate but your results do make sense.

Now, what to do? Depends on what kind of fish you want. Basically, the good news is you can keep anything. The bad news is that you'll need water additives no matter what you keep. Cheap option is adding crushed coral, baking soda, and Epsom salts.

 

[Ringoffire]

Ok that makes a lot more since after seeing that chart. I will still get the kit so I can continue to monitor my levels. I've been reading up a little on how to raise ph and Kh. Saw a few suggestions about putting the crushed coral or aragonite in a mesh bag and inserting into filter. What are everyone's suggestions for getting my levels balanced? Hoping to get the supplies I need when I go to get the test kit. Assuming that my water is indeed very soft.

 

[ScotJudd]

Great that you gave it a go but I wouldn't try adjusting anything until you've used a proper aquarium liquid test kit (not test strips even if they are for aquariums - they are not accurate enough).
I have to apologise for a mistake in my previous reply. I keep my tanks at 6 degrees Kh and Gh (not ppm) which is about 100 ppm. When you get your test kit you will see that the number of drops used to effect a colour change is the degrees of Kh and Gh which is easier to relate to than ppm.
Your test results, if correct, mean you have extremely soft water which can easily be remedied and your Ph can be made more stable.
Sorry for the error!

 

[tnfinfan]

Ok that makes a lot more since after seeing that chart. I will still get the kit so I can continue to monitor my levels. I've been reading up a little on how to raise ph and Kh. Saw a few suggestions about putting the crushed coral or aragonite in a mesh bag and inserting into filter. What are everyone's suggestions for getting my levels balanced? Hoping to get the supplies I need when I go to get the test kit. Assuming that my water is indeed very soft.

Oh, I quite agree that you should have the proper testing tools since you are going to be tinkering with the chemistry of your water. I also recommend additional research. There are several good articles online about aquarium water chemistry and how to alter it.

I don't recall if you answered whether you have a water softener on your house? If you live in a rental and aren't sure, the outside spigots are normally before the softener so you'd get unsoftened water from them.

 

[Matt68005]

Lets run a pipeline from your water supply to mine! mine is 8.4 out of the tap ffs i always have to lower it for my kids beta.

 

[Ringoffire]

Got the test kit today. Ok so, No, I do not have a water softener on my house. I am assuming the degrees is how many drops I added correct? And test results are as follows:

Out of tap- Kh 2, Gh 2

10 gallon tank- Kh 2, Gh 2, ph 6.6, ammo .25, nitrite 0, nitrate 0. Note this tank is at about 2.5 weeks into a fish in cycle with 2cory cats and 1 Siamese algae eater.

I also have 55g planted tank that just started a fish less cycle. Dosing with ammonia. But obviously using the same water source so the same ph problem will exist. Ph on this one today was 7.2 but I expect it to fall just like the 10 gallon did.
So now the big question, What do I do?

 

[ScotJudd]

Hi there.
You are quite right, 2 drops = 2 degrees of Kh and Gh. The test kit strengths have been devised that way - to make life simpler.
dKh and dGh of 2 is very soft water. The low Kh will lead to unstable Ph. In my opinion a good dKh is 6 and not a bad idea to match the dGh to 6 as well.
The principle to raise both is the same. Add Bicarbonate of Soda (not baking soda) to raise Kh and Epson Salts to raise Gh. Raising either in a fish in tank should be done slowly to avoid shocking the fish. The fish less tank can be increased quicker.
What I do is make up a solution, this is a little trial and error, but I add 20ml of bicarb to 500ml of tap water in a bottle. This is my solution. I then add 25ml of the solution to each 10l bucket of water on water changes. I find adding this dilution safer than trying to guess the tiny amounts of bicarb required. This gives me about dKh6 in the tank, eventually. You need to adjust the amount of the solution if the Kh stays too low or drift too high. Too high and your Ph will rise to about 7.5. You soon get the hang of it.
I don't need to use Epson salts, my Gh is ok. But I would use the same principle but you will have to do a trial bucket to see how much solution is required to raise your bucket to dGh6. You may have to make your solution weaker or stronger. Once you get your measurements right then it's dead easy to make your solutions and use them on water changes.
If you are doing anything more than 25% WC on your fish in tank then I would not add the full Kh and Gh 6 water but maybe get your bucket water to 3 and work your way up over a few days.
When both tanks have reached Gh and Kh 6 you will need to use Gh and Kh 6 for future water changes. It is worth it as your water parameters will be a lot more stable.
I hope that's ok. Get back to me if your are unsure of what I have said.

 

[enrgizerbunny]

Another solution is get a pair of women's tights-cut the foot off, fill with crushed coral, tie it up and put it in your filter or bury it in your substrate. I was having problems with my PH dropping from 7 to 6.4 over the course of a week, now I have a steady 7.4 after adding CC to my filter.

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Ringoffire]

I like the idea of adding the crushed coral which I have read a bit about. But my question about that is I'm assuming I will still need to adjust my water for water changes since my ph/Kh is so low. Right? I can't get the tank adjusted to Kh 6 and ph 7.4 and the go add my low# tap water. In the 10 I am doing water changes every other day. But the 55 is fish less so no changes needed at this time. I may try out the crushed coral alone in that and see how it adjust. And try raising it with the water changes in the 10. The 10g has cory cats in it temporally until they get moved to the 55 so Epsom salts is not an option for the Gh. I have read they are very sensitive to salts. Correct?

 

[ScotJudd]

Cory's are sensitive to large amounts of common salt, especially when used as a medication. Epson salt is not common salt but magnesium sulphate. Also the amount being used is nowhere near medication levels. I would use epson salts with Cory's without worrying.
Crushed coral and shell is a good natural way to raise Gh and good when your tank is finally cycled and WCs are at normal maintenance. However, I would use epson salts until you reach that point because of all your WCs during cycling.
You will get lots of helpful and varying advice. They are not contradictory, merely pointing out the different options. Just make any changes slowly to ensure the fish are not shocked.