Refugium Anyone ?

[Ricky 1]

I have a sand substrate, when I moved a piece of bog wood the sand was dark grey under it, is that bad or not

 

[Mebbid]

I have a sand substrate, when I moved a piece of bog wood the sand was dark grey under it, is that bad or not

Its not the best thing in the world, but its not going to hurt anything.

 

[PB_Smith]

I have a sand substrate, when I moved a piece of bog wood the sand was dark grey under it, is that bad or not

could be a patch of anaerobic bacteria due to not enough oxygenated water reaching that spot. If it sends up bubbles and it stinks, then it is hydrogen sulfide gas that is definitely not good.

 

[Ricky 1]

Should I stir it up before a WC on Friday? or what.........

 

[seove]

Should I stir it up before a WC on Friday? or what.........

You shouldn't disturb the sand bed. When planting or removing plants, etc. you should disturb the sand bed as little as possible. The sand bed is like a biological filter. There are aerobic, anaerobic, and anoxic zones will take care of themselves but when disturbed them you throw everything out of balance. Similar to when you remove all of your filter media at once.

There is some toxic stuff at the bottom-most layers of the sand bed that you don't want to rise up into your water column without first making it's way, naturally, through the middle and top zones. One such bad guy is hydrogen sulfide.

 

[seove]

Your post provided some good comments. Thanks. To answer a couple of your questions... I think.

The compartments in the trickle filter are 1. mechanical, 2. biological, 3. biological. In the sump I'm probably overstocked and some I wish I didn't have but I was still learning when I built the filter. I didn't know that I wanted a planted tank and some things I have in the sump make it difficult for plants. In the sump I have crayfish, ghost shrimp, feeder guppies and Apple snails (that I'm weeding out by taking them to the LBS). There is also a aquaponic grow bed there.

In the display tank I have rainbow sharks, cory's, 1 blind cave tetra, plecos, Buenos Aries tetra, tiger barbs, dwarf puffers, and platys, and danios. It sounds like too much of a bio-load but as far as real estate is concerned they don't seemed stressed.

I may need to reconsider the plecos and rainbow sharks. They like to hide and I don't have enough hiding places for them. I may get some plastic plants since my live plants aren't growing fast enough.

I looked at the picture already. If you have the time I have pictures!
Hold on there's more on your second reply.

(Ricky, try to keep up ) I assume you are relatively new, years ago I knew nothing, it will all make sense in no time at all! I'm learning this too! Everyday near enough you can learn something new about fish.

Yes I see why you're in favour, double the system but, the second sump part is almost a tank! (Trickle filters, that's a compartment to me, that's a minefield in SW! Some lovers some haters) There are benefits maybe, accessibility things like that, I never thought about using one in freshwater, I went out and got a regular filters.


What else, that's a lot of filter! What do you keep in your display tank?
I have tanks that have less water than your sump! (I think a lot of people do)

I was considering if the effort of DSB style but isolated from the tank, like a sump but gravity returns (it's the only way it'll fit) could be of use to me.

I like all of your DIY stuff, that's the way to go for a lot of things, I didn't really have much knowledge by the time I had almost everything I own now. Shame.

I properly agree whole heartedly with point one!

What's the formula?
Thanks for the description!

 

[Ricky 1]

I am pretty much up on keeping fish etc. but not on this particular subject JM, I find this hard to understand with a lot of towing and frowing from all, but most interesting to read, and that's how we learn, it's a great thread, I am just climbing out of the abyss......lol

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Good man (I assume!)

It's all fun really. Glad you're enjoying it.

This is new to me but I've researched sumps for my reef, it isn't running yet but I've built it. (Hope it works for real, it's tested and doesn't leak! (Anymore!))

For this thread, I'm just as new as you!

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Seove, loads of great info from you throughout, yes questions!


I question everything. It's a flaw. Sorry.

I'm a bit like you then, got things and did things then learnt things!
Now I'm here asking questions!

Get some boxwood pieces and make a natural cave, plecs will love it, or/and some rock for a similar cave structure.

Not sure about the shark but I've kept lots of different plecostomus and they seemed to like hiding under wood or rock. (Enough to cover eyes, with tail poking out is enough!)
They hide funny sometimes!

 

[seove]

I am pretty much up on keeping fish etc. but not on this particular subject JM, I find this hard to understand with a lot of towing and frowing from all, but most interesting to read, and that's how we learn, it's a great thread, I am just climbing out of the abyss......lol

One thing that's probably muddying the water here is the fact that there are two "fringe" topics being discussed.

1. Refugiums/Sumps (I first heard of this term just 6 months ago and have been loving the science of it since)
2. Sand substrates (FW Deep Sand Beds). Another science in itself. For years I thought it was the same as gravel. You put it in and you clean it.

Great discussion.

 

[seove]

J.Mcpeak,

Nice photos!

 

[seove]

I'm not familiar with boxwood. I'm starting on cave structures with lava rock but have been buying 1-2 pieces per month so it's a work in progress. It's expensive.

Seove, loads of great info from you throughout, yes questions!


I question everything. It's a flaw. Sorry.

I'm a bit like you then, got things and did things then learnt things!
Now I'm here asking questions!

Get some boxwood pieces and make a natural cave, plecs will love it, or/and some rock for a similar cave structure.

Not sure about the shark but I've kept lots of different plecostomus and they seemed to like hiding under wood or rock. (Enough to cover eyes, with tail poking out is enough!)
They hide funny sometimes!

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Bog wood not boxwood, normally dark brown and heavy even when dry.
It's pretty much safe to assume a plec will like wood/rocks/sand.
My favourite family of fish by a mile, I've kept a few and some are out during the day but for most, daytime viewing is a rare treat. Once I built a cave big enough for my first one the same thing happened. He was out all the time, built cave, gone.
(Maybe they are out more often but my viewing experience is different from a tank in your house)

I use slate from a garden centre, I like slate, nice big chunks but you need to really hunt for nice pieces, I did the same, just search every now and then and pick pieces up, I think I added 9 pieces last time I filled up, it's really cheap but you need to wash it, then it's the same slate the fish store marks up! (Here you can find 3 chunks for a £10-12 type deal. People look at you funny when you're digging out the pieces but hey, I gotta live with them!

(Thanks for looking at the pics, glad you liked them, that's my DIY but the build wouldn't have been possible without my boss!)

Yes thread split situation, the question was what is a refugium but it has deviated into a sump workout which could be useful? A refuge is X but in order to implement it, the rest of the info could combine into something helpful. For instance, I didn't think about freshwater use, I see it, know about it, but I don't get why I'd change. (Starting again maybe yes)

Speaking with an actual fish head, DIY fan, it's good for me. I'm learning.

How do you work out how much sand will erm, I'll say condition, 100 litres/gallons. Is there a formula? I realise a DSB is part of the tank but if you had a sump based DSB how do you equate a useful minimum size?

 

[seove]

Bog wood not boxwood, normally dark brown and heavy even when dry.


SNIP

How do you work out how much sand will erm, I'll say condition, 100 litres/gallons. Is there a formula? I realise a DSB is part of the tank but if you had a sump based DSB how do you equate a useful minimum size?

Thanks. I didn't quite understand the last question but to calculate amount of substrate to use go to: Substrate Calculator

 

[Fishfur]

That is a fascinating article. Makes me want to take back the bags of Flourite I bought and replace with pool sand, when I finally get to put my main tanks back in action. Thanks for the link.

 

[Mebbid]

That is a fascinating article. Makes me want to take back the bags of Flourite I bought and replace with pool sand, when I finally get to put my main tanks back in action. Thanks for the link.

The fluorite is far more efficient of a growing medium for plants than a dsb.

Dsbs are slow acting things and would never keep up with nutrient uptake of even slowly growing root feeders.

Furthermore, keeping a dsb in the sump has fallen out of favor with the salt water crowd for the same reason as mentioned above. They are slow acting and rely on the large surface area of the display to make them be the most effective. there's simply not enough room in the majority of sumps to make them worth having.

 

[seove]

That is a fascinating article. Makes me want to take back the bags of Flourite I bought and replace with pool sand, when I finally get to put my main tanks back in action. Thanks for the link.

I want to share this with you regarding a sand substrate. I'm not trying to suggest that one is better than the other but... I used to keep Oscars (my favorite) and I would prefer gravel with Oscars. I now have a planted community tank and I discovered several things after switching to sand a about 6 months ago.

1. There's a science behind deep sand beds or sand substrates
2. You don't siphon a sand substrate like you do with gravel.
3. The debris stays on top of the substrate and makes it easier for the bottom feeders to clean up and much easier to clean during water changes
4. If you slope the substrate most of the debris will accumulate towards the front and it is very easy to see. You just need to siphon in the front and you don't have to siphon the substrate
5. The water in the bucket during water changes looks pretty much the same as clean water
6. I was very surprised at how much I like the look of sand substrate
7. Corys like sand better because they may lose their barbels with gravel
8. Plants do better with sand (I think)
9. I can't think of the 9th point. It's late.

 

[Mebbid]

I want to share this with you regarding a sand substrate. I'm not trying to suggest that one is better than the other but... I used to keep Oscars (my favorite) and I would prefer gravel with Oscars. I now have a planted community tank and I discovered several things after switching to sand a about 6 months ago.

1. There's a science behind deep sand beds or sand substrates
2. You don't siphon a sand substrate like you do with gravel.
3. The debris stays on top of the substrate and makes it easier for the bottom feeders to clean up and much easier to clean during water changes
4. If you slope the substrate most of the debris will accumulate towards the front and it is very easy to see. You just need to siphon in the front and you don't have to siphon the substrate
5. The water in the bucket during water changes looks pretty much the same as clean water
6. I was very surprised at how much I like the look of sand substrate
7. Corys like sand better because they may lose their barbels with gravel
8. Plants do better with sand (I think)
9. I can't think of the 9th point. It's late.

It is an interesting thing to note in sand vs gravel that in gravel assuming the gravel is very very well maintained there will be a lower nitrate reading in the gravel vs the sand. It traps a lot of crud that would end up fouling the water. However, the number of people that keep their gravel this clean is a minority.

 

[seove]

It is an interesting thing to note in sand vs gravel that in gravel assuming the gravel is very very well maintained there will be a lower nitrate reading in the gravel vs the sand. It traps a lot of crud that would end up fouling the water. However, the number of people that keep their gravel this clean is a minority.

You make some good points. However, with sand, not as much food and waste falls below the surface/substrate and is more accessible to bottom feeders and biological filters.

 

[Mebbid]

You make some good points. However, with sand, not as much food and waste falls below the surface/substrate and is more accessible to bottom feeders and biological filters.

True, but poo will also be trapped by the gravel which is where the majority of excreted nitrogen is going to be.

Sand is still much easier, but gravel has some potential