Refugium Anyone ?

[seove]

So how does it get from sump to tank? Seove, is it pumped from one to the other? I was looking at a video from Mebbid, it was extremely technical, great to watch though

I return water to the DT with a pump (and hose) and drain with an overflow box (and PVC piping, not shown in the photo). I'm thinking of adding a PVC overflow. I hope that answers your question.

 

[Ricky 1]

Thanks JM, yes I realize that now, although some do still have them, it looks like "SUMP" is the one for fresh water.........

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I've seen some larger freshwater tanks that use a refugium. There is some kind of propriety substrate called "Miracle Mud" that is supposed to support the growth of the nitrate consuming bacteria. I think it also helped replace the trace minerals that most people forget about.
The tanks I saw also had floating plants growing in it.
One guy had a fairly heavily stocked discus tank and claimed he only had to do two PWCs a year. I'm a big believer in water changes though, so I'm a bit leery about going that long myself.

It all seemed like overkill to me... But the cool kind. I may research it further if/when I set up a large tank.


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It's possible if you keep an eye on GH/Kh and supplement trace.
The anaerobic bacteria that form in the mud utilise Nitrate, just the same as nitrosamonas/nitrospira utilise ammonia and nitrite. Some people just use a deep sand bed, DSB. Miracle mud came later I think but it's the same principle. I'm not sure if mud has any other benefits?

Almost the only reason we change water is to control nitrate but the other reasons are to replace lost minerals etc.

I agree with you though, I'm a fan of water changes.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Thanks JM, yes I realize that now, although some do still have them, it looks like "SUMP" is the one for fresh water.........

Cheers, sorry catching up with the thread!

I'm at the end now!

Thanks for the note!

It's all fresh in my head as I've just worked through my first one this summer, it's still dry but I have it!

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Seove, do you keep marines?

Edit,
(I think I found the answer! Back up there! No)

 

[seove]

Seove, do you keep marines?

Edit,
(I think I found the answer! Back up there! No)

Just FW. Even though wet dry trickle filters and sump refugiums are mainly for SW. It's a big benefit (for slightly different reasons) for FW as well. A fun DIY project and a significantly larger filter than what I would have purchased at the store.

 

[seove]

Just FW. Even though wet dry trickle filters and sump refugiums are mainly for SW. It's a big benefit (for slightly different reasons) for FW as well. A fun DIY project and a significantly larger filter than what I would have purchased at the store.

I wrote a detailed description if you'd like to see it. I'll have to find it though.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I wrote a detailed description if you'd like to see it. I'll have to find it though.

Yes please.

I'm a DIY fan, most of my stuff is homemade except filters/heaters gravel/sand.

The best part about fish keeping is all the other things you end up learning, plumbing is a good example!

Cheers,,

 

[Ricky 1]

I return water to the DT with a pump (and hose) and drain with an overflow box (and PVC piping, not shown in the photo). I'm thinking of adding a PVC overflow. I hope that answers your question.

Thanks, yes it does Seove, I have leaned a lot from this thread, glad I put it on.........

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Just FW. Even though wet dry trickle filters and sump refugiums are mainly for SW. It's a big benefit (for slightly different reasons) for FW as well. A fun DIY project and a significantly larger filter than what I would have purchased at the store.

Tell my why it's useful for fresh, I've never considered it though a DSB or similar natural nitrate reduction system could have uses on certain big tanks
(like mine in the future)

Like I said earlier, I'm not sure why you'd actually use one?
(Think I'm about to learn something)
I know about additional volume, heater hiding etc.
Is yours a sump style filter on a FW system or does it have extra compartments.

I've recently heard about freshwater skimming, what do you think/know?

 

[seove]

Yes please.

I'm a DIY fan, most of my stuff is homemade except filters/heaters gravel/sand.

The best part about fish keeping is all the other things you end up learning, plumbing is a good example!

Cheers,,

My sump is made from a 54 gallon tub (with about 30 gallons of water). The lid of the sump has two 2-foot plant lights. The trickle filter is a 3-drawer system made from a 4 drawer cart (minus the bottom drawer). The bottom of the lowest drawer is an inch below the water line (to keep the trickle noise down). The 2 lower drawers are filled with pot and bath scrubbies as the bio-media. The top drawer has the K-Mart pillow filler as floss and layers of fine and coarse filter pads. The pads and floss are separated by "egg crate" (light diffuser) and all of the drawers have "egg crate" at the very bottom. The drawers have holes made with a soldering iron, spaced about 3/4 inch apart. A drill will crack the drawers. At the mouth of the overflow pipe I have a pot scrubby to keep the noise down. In the sump I have a sand substrate, plants, Guppies, Ghost Shrimp, Algae Eaters, and crayfish. In the overflow box I have a DIY Stockman standpipe to keep the drain noise down. The drain is 1 1/4" PVC. The return is 1" nylon hose with a DIY PVC spray-bar. I had hose for the return but I found that the PVC is prettier and quieter. The tank that it filters is 55 gallons. Click on the pic below to get a view.

 

[seove]

Tell my why it's useful for fresh, I've never considered it though a DSB or similar natural nitrate reduction system could have uses on certain big tanks
(like mine in the future)

Like I said earlier, I'm not sure why you'd actually use one?
(Think I'm about to learn something)
I know about additional volume, heater hiding etc.
Is yours a sump style filter on a FW system or does it have extra compartments.

I've recently heard about freshwater skimming, what do you think/know?

One thing that I want to mention first is that a DSB is not beneficial for FW as it is for SW. It could cause problems. A shallow sand bed is better for FW is better. There’s a formula for how much sand substrate is best for FW.

Let’s see. Some benefits.

1. You like DIY projects? This alone is enough alone. It’s a lot of fun to maintain.
2. In the trickle tower the water gets a lot of aeration (for beneficial bacteria) so I don’t use any extra aeration. A “downside” is there’s so much oxygenation that it’s hard to maintain CO2 for plant growth. Plants struggle more in the sump. I need to figure something out.
3. Having a sump provides more volume and the water stays clean and stable. When I do water changes there’s no dirty look to the water.
4. If you chose to you could put a lot of plants in the sump that could regulate stuff (from the Nitrogen cycle) that would look unsightly in the DT.
5. My pump is a lot larger than I would have on a HOB filter.
6. When I do water changes I can return the water directly into the filter compartment and not have to worry about stirring up stuff in the DT.

I don’t have extra compartments in my sump if that’s what you’re asking. I do have extra compartments (drawers) in my trickle filter though (as in the description). In the sump I have refuges for fry and shrimp and I have a grow bed since I’m learning about aquaponics.

I heard that skimming doesn’t work as well in FW as it does in SW. The proteins float to the surface much easier in SW than in FW.

 

[Ricky 1]

Lost in the abyss..........

 

[Mebbid]

One thing that I want to mention first is that a DSB is not beneficial for FW as it is for SW. It could cause problems. A shallow sand bed is better for FW is better.

How so?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

One thing that I want to mention first is that a DSB is not beneficial for FW as it is for SW. It could cause problems. A shallow sand bed is better for FW is better. There’s a formula for how much sand substrate is best for FW.

Let’s see. Some benefits.

1. You like DIY projects? This alone is enough alone. It’s a lot of fun to maintain.
2. In the trickle tower the water gets a lot of aeration (for beneficial bacteria) so I don’t use any extra aeration. A “downside” is there’s so much oxygenation that it’s hard to maintain CO2 for plant growth. Plants struggle more in the sump. I need to figure something out.
3. Having a sump provides more volume and the water stays clean and stable. When I do water changes there’s no dirty look to the water.
4. If you chose to you could put a lot of plants in the sump that could regulate stuff (from the Nitrogen cycle) that would look unsightly in the DT.
5. My pump is a lot larger than I would have on a HOB filter.
6. When I do water changes I can return the water directly into the filter compartment and not have to worry about stirring up stuff in the DT.

I don’t have extra compartments in my sump if that’s what you’re asking. I do have extra compartments (drawers) in my trickle filter though (as in the description). In the sump I have refuges for fry and shrimp and I have a grow bed since I’m learning about aquaponics.

I heard that skimming doesn’t work as well in FW as it does in SW. The proteins float to the surface much easier in SW than in FW.

I looked at the picture already. If you have the time I have pictures!
Hold on there's more on your second reply.

(Ricky, try to keep up ) I assume you are relatively new, years ago I knew nothing, it will all make sense in no time at all! I'm learning this too! Everyday near enough you can learn something new about fish.

Yes I see why you're in favour, double the system but, the second sump part is almost a tank! (Trickle filters, that's a compartment to me, that's a minefield in SW! Some lovers some haters) There are benefits maybe, accessibility things like that, I never thought about using one in freshwater, I went out and got a regular filters.


What else, that's a lot of filter! What do you keep in your display tank?
I have tanks that have less water than your sump! (I think a lot of people do)

I was considering if the effort of DSB style but isolated from the tank, like a sump but gravity returns (it's the only way it'll fit) could be of use to me.

I like all of your DIY stuff, that's the way to go for a lot of things, I didn't really have much knowledge by the time I had almost everything I own now. Shame.

I properly agree whole heartedly with point one!

What's the formula?
Thanks for the description!

 

[seove]

How so?

Well. Let me backtrack a little. For FW, deep means up to 3 inches. I have one and it has been working pretty good. If you're trying it for the first time I would learn about it first. You have to treat it differently from a gravel substrate.

Here's a good article supporting FW DSB. Deep Sand Beds

 

[Fishfur]

Just wanted to make a small point. JMcpeak, said Quote " The anaerobic bacteria that form in the mud utilise Nitrate, just the same as nitrosamonas/nitrospira utilise ammonia and nitrite ".

That's not quite right. Both bacterial processes convert toxins into products that are less toxic, or not toxic, but the way they do it is different. The Aerobic BB in FW filters consume ammonia and nitrite, the end product is nitrate, which is still a toxin that has to be managed, typically by water changes and/or plantings as well.

The anaerobic bacteria you get in a DSB, more usual in salt tanks, go a step further, converting nitrate into Nitrogen gas, which dissipates into the air. The gas is entirely non toxic, needing no further management.

There's a downside to anaerobic bacteria, because if they get out of hand they can also produce other gasses, like hydrogen sulphide gas, which is pretty nasty and can kill fish or inverts quite easily.

Our fresh water BB are actually nitrifiers, & the anaerobes are DEnitrifiers in a DSB.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Just wanted to make a small point. JMcpeak, said Quote " The anaerobic bacteria that form in the mud utilise Nitrate, just the same as nitrosamonas/nitrospira utilise ammonia and nitrite ".

That's not quite right. Both bacterial processes convert toxins into products that are less toxic, or not toxic, but the way they do it is different. The Aerobic BB in FW filters consume ammonia and nitrite, the end product is nitrate, which is still a toxin that has to be managed, typically by water changes and/or plantings as well.

The anaerobic bacteria you get in a DSB, more usual in salt tanks, go a step further, converting nitrate into Nitrogen gas, which dissipates into the air. The gas is entirely non toxic, needing no further management.

There's a downside to anaerobic bacteria, because if they get out of hand they can also produce other gasses, like hydrogen sulphide gas, which is pretty nasty and can kill fish or inverts quite easily.

Our fresh water BB are actually nitrifiers, & the anaerobes are DEnitrifiers in a DSB.

Thank you for some stuff but,

Nitrosamonas convert (utilise) ammonia into nitrite, which is converted to nitrate by nitrospira, that leaves nitrate removed by WC. I thought that's how it worked? Aerobic bacteria.

Anaerobic convert nitrate. By product is safe (sometimes!)
It's the same thing? Conversion/utilise I'm not sure it's consumption?

That's why ammonia goes down first in a cycle, nitrospira need to produce nitrite before nitrospira can colonise, when they colonise nitrite is converted into nitrate.

What have I misunderstood? I don't get it?

Edit, I get it!
Our fresh water BB are actually nitrifiers, & the anaerobes are DEnitrifiers in a DSB

 

[Fishfur]

Exactly !

 

[seove]

Well. Let me backtrack a little. For FW, deep means up to 3 inches. I have one and it has been working pretty good. If you're trying it for the first time I would learn about it first. You have to treat it differently from a gravel substrate.

Here's a good article supporting FW DSB. Deep Sand Beds

oops . Here it is. Deep Sand Beds