Cycled and Planted Tank, Still Need Water Changes?

[Bubs]

If someone has a cycled tank and enough plants that they keep the nitrates down at a safe level all the time, is there any reason at all to do water partial water changes anymore? I've heard some people say yes and some say no. I just don't understand why you would need to except for maybe an occasional one to add some fresh aquarium salt or maybe to move around the substrate a little to prevent pockets of water from being trapped and becoming stagnant.
If so, how often? And why?
If not, why not?
Can't wait to hear all of your opinions, thanks!

 

[Angela1108]

Doing weekly changes is best. The plants will use up some minerals and things that are in the water and it will need to be replenished.


What fish do you have? Most shouldn't have aquarium salt added


Plants don't take up too much nitrate especially low light/slow growers so the nitrate will add up faster than the plants can keep up with.


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[Coursair]

Tanks build up TDS as well ( Total Dissolved Solids) PWCs keep that number lower. Some shrimp are very sensitive to TDS and it also does replenish minerals for the plants.

Plus I often see courtship behavior just after water changes, so my fish like them too.

I add my fertilizers just after my water changes.


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[BBradbury]

Tank Maintenance

If someone has a cycled tank and enough plants that they keep the nitrates down at a safe level all the time, is there any reason at all to do water partial water changes anymore? I've heard some people say yes and some say no. I just don't understand why you would need to except for maybe an occasional one to add some fresh aquarium salt or maybe to move around the substrate a little to prevent pockets of water from being trapped and becoming stagnant.
If so, how often? And why?
If not, why not?
Can't wait to hear all of your opinions, thanks!

Hello Bub...

The water is what maintains the fish and plants. The longer the same water stays in the tank, more the chemistry changes, because it's constantly moving through the filter media and the build up of fish and plant wastes. Your tank inhabitants won't live long if the water is constantly changing, they need a constant water chemistry. The only way to guarantee this type of chemistry is to do like nature, provide a constant source of new water.

I change half the water in my tanks at least weekly in those requiring it. By flushing a lot of new, treated tap water through the tank, there's no time for wastes to build up and stress the fish and plants, because you're always removing the old water and replacing it with new.

If you take good care of the tank water, you'll have no tank problems. It's that simple.

B

 

[Sk3lly]

If someone has a cycled tank and enough plants that they keep the nitrates down at a safe level all the time, is there any reason at all to do water partial water changes anymore? I've heard some people say yes and some say no. I just don't understand why you would need to except for maybe an occasional one to add some fresh aquarium salt or maybe to move around the substrate a little to prevent pockets of water from being trapped and becoming stagnant.

If so, how often? And why?

If not, why not?

Can't wait to hear all of your opinions, thanks!

Would you like to bathe in water that you urinate in?

I know i wouldnt and im pretty sure fish love fresh water too


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[Bubs]

Doing weekly changes is best. The plants will use up some minerals and things that are in the water and it will need to be replenished.


What fish do you have? Most shouldn't have aquarium salt added


Plants don't take up too much nitrate especially low light/slow growers so the nitrate will add up faster than the plants can keep up with.


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I'm not talking specifically about my fish, I mean in general. And I have a few different tanks.

What fish shouldn't have salt?? I haven't read of any who can't have salt at all. Even catfish benefit from some salt, they just can't handle the same amount that most other fish can. But according to tests that were done on catfish being raised for food, they actually benefit from occasional short periods of high salt levels. Those treated with occasional high levels of salt even had longer lifespans than those not treated with any salt and than those given a constant low level of salt.

And I disagree, that is not necessarily true. I have seen a few scenarios where people had tanks that were heavily planted enough that the nitrates stayed at an acceptable level and they would only do water changes every month or every two months, just to replenish minerals. I'm the one who tested their water, so its not like they were making it up.

Thank you for your response, I'm not arguing with you to be rude, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of everything and find answers.

Tanks build up TDS as well ( Total Dissolved Solids) PWCs keep that number lower. Some shrimp are very sensitive to TDS and it also does replenish minerals for the plants.

Plus I often see courtship behavior just after water changes, so my fish like them too.

I add my fertilizers just after my water changes.


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Is there a way to test for TDS? What exactly are those? Would they not be broken down by BB and then used by the plants as food? If not, why not?
There is such a small amount of minerals added to the water by salts and such a small mount the used by the fish, if that were the only reason one needed to do a PWC, would it really need to be as often as once a week?

I do appreciate your response, you seem like you might know what you're talking about.

Hello Bub...

The water is what maintains the fish and plants. The longer the same water stays in the tank, more the chemistry changes, because it's constantly moving through the filter media and the build up of fish and plant wastes. Your tank inhabitants won't live long if the water is constantly changing, they need a constant water chemistry. The only way to guarantee this type of chemistry is to do like nature, provide a constant source of new water.

I change half the water in my tanks at least weekly in those requiring it. By flushing a lot of new, treated tap water through the tank, there's no time for wastes to build up and stress the fish and plants, because you're always removing the old water and replacing it with new.

If you take good care of the tank water, you'll have no tank problems. It's that simple.

B

I find your post to be confusing and contradictory. Having the tank cycled helps prevent sudden changes in water chemistry. Then the plants use the end result, nitrate, and turn it back into clean water, in theory. And 50% is a lot to do at once. It seems like THAT would cause the water chemistry to shift a lot more than what I'm asking about. That is not constant at all. Thank you for trying to help. I just am not sure if I understand what you are trying to say.

Would you like to bathe in water that you urinate in?

I know i wouldnt and im pretty sure fish love fresh water too


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Well if I urinated in water that had bacteria and plants that turned my waste back into clean water, I certainly wouldn't mind.

 

[Hholly]

Think of it this way. It's a closed system. But you keep adding stuff to it in the form of fish food. Your fish use some of it and grow. But they don't absorb everything. So if you keep adding stuff, and stuff, and stuff... Pretty soon it's an unhealthy situation. In nature, there aren't many closed systems. Lakes are fed by springs, rivers etc. But even in nature, if too much stuff is added to the system, bad things happen. Like when fertilizer runoff chokes a pond with algae.

 

[Bubs]

Think of it this way. It's a closed system. But you keep adding stuff to it in the form of fish food. Your fish use some of it and grow. But they don't absorb everything. So if you keep adding stuff, and stuff, and stuff... Pretty soon it's an unhealthy situation. In nature, there aren't many closed systems. Lakes are fed by springs, rivers etc. But even in nature, if too much stuff is added to the system, bad things happen. Like when fertilizer runoff chokes a pond with algae.

I understand what you are saying, and in an UNcycled and/or UNplanted tank, that would certainly make sense and be a huge issue. HOWEVER, I'm talking about a CYCLED and PLANTED tank. SOOO, extra food and fish waste turn into ammonia, which is then turned by beneficial bacteria into nitrite, which is then turned by another beneficial bacteria into nitrate, which is the end result of a cycled tank. THEN the nitrate is eaten by the plants and eliminated from the water. Thus in theory, the once dirty water, has been turned back into clean water and the toxins have been eliminated. If there is something else in the tank that would build up and kill things, then what is it? If nobody can tell me that, then I see no reason why the water would become harmful to the fish at all.
The only reason that I can think of to do water changes would be to occasionally replenish minerals (salts).
Saying "if too much stuff is added to the system, bad things happen" isn't enough for me to just be like, "Oh, it all makes sense!" SOMETIMES, that is true, but not always. I need to know exactly what would go wrong and why, and if nobody has an answer to that, then I can't just accept that some imaginary thing will go wrong, as a fact.
In an uncycled and unplanted tank, yes, the waste would just keep building up and then kill all the fish, but in a cycled and heavily planted tank that waste is not just broken down into a much less harmful substance, that substance is then eaten by the plants which completely eliminates it from the water, thus the water has now had the toxins eliminated from it and is clean again.
Does that make sense?

 

[Angela1108]

Well you asked what we all thought and we all told you that we think you need water changes but it seems you just want to argue with all of us so why bother posting?

Also you can get TDS meters. Pretty cheap off of amazon.


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[DeeLee2013]

Well you asked what we all thought and we all told you that we think you need water changes but it seems you just want to argue with all of us so why bother posting?

Also you can get TDS meters. Pretty cheap off of amazon.


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^ +1 ^

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

SMH.


? Diana Lee ?
? the St. Augustine Redhead ?

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[Coursair]

I do have club members that have self sustaining tanks. But they are typically Heavily planted and very lightly stocked. Top off may be RO water or low TDS water. Yes there are TDS meters. Not expensive.

One way to really keep water clean is also plant your filter or use house plants growing out of the tank.
Pothos are a good choice.

Look up Walstad Method or read her book. Google planted HOB Filter

No water change tanks are a balancing act. I don't recommend them to most people.

Aquatic Plant Central and The Planted Tank forums have more info on El Natural tanks.


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[Delapool]

Yes, your kh and ph will trend lower over time and need to be replaced. Ah, but why not just dose this?? Well, there's heaps of elements and we measure but a few. Salts building up would be the other concern.

A water change resets the system and keeps it consistent. This is also useful if you are dosing ferts in a high tech planted tank.

Regular water changes mean your tank water is close to the shop water in chemistry (hopefully).

I have done planted tanks with no water changes. Tanks did well but I tended to have fish lost when I did do a water change (although these were very large water changes and too much for fish to handle).

Edit - chloride building up would be a concern here as my tap water seems naturally high in it.

 

[Bubs]

Well you asked what we all thought and we all told you that we think you need water changes but it seems you just want to argue with all of us so why bother posting?

Also you can get TDS meters. Pretty cheap off of amazon.

^ +1 ^

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

SMH.

I didn't even argue with your post actually, Angela, I just asked additional questions. I WISH that people would argue more and dig for the answers, because then we'd have a lot more fish owners who take better care of their fish, instead of accepting things that they are told as fact without having anything to back it up. Example:
1 - "Can I put a goldfish in a one gallon bowl?"
2 - "Sure! It will just grow to the size of the tank that its in."
1 - "Okay."
And then that poor fish meets his untimely death due to and ill informed person who just accepted an answer without a second though or question.
Now if person number 1 had thought for a second and been like:
1 - "That doesn't sound right. How is that even possible?"
And continued to ask questions, and yes, argue, he may have learned the truth and decided against getting a goldfish and instead bought a few little white clouds or a couple little shrimp, who would fair much better if their water were cared for properly.

I just want answers, with reasons that make sense.
If I argue I expect the other person will argue back if they have any facts backing up their answer and at some point a conclusion will be reached and someone will have learned something.
If I'm wrong tell me why. If you just say that I'm wrong and nothing else, what reason do I have to believe you other than trusting the gut of a person who I don't even know? Now I'm just rambling. I don't know how to wrap this up. Er, the end.

I do have club members that have self sustaining tanks. But they are typically Heavily planted and very lightly stocked. Top off may be RO water or low TDS water. Yes there are TDS meters. Not expensive.

One way to really keep water clean is also plant your filter or use house plants growing out of the tank.
Pothos are a good choice.

Look up Walstad Method or read her book. Google planted HOB Filter

No water change tanks are a balancing act. I don't recommend them to most people.

Aquatic Plant Central and The Planted Tank forums have more info on El Natural tanks.


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!!!!! Thank you for the information and the resources. I'll check those out. Much appreciated.

Yes, your kh and ph will trend lower over time and need to be replaced. Ah, but why not just dose this?? Well, there's heaps of elements and we measure but a few. Salts building up would be the other concern.

A water change resets the system and keeps it consistent. This is also useful if you are dosing ferts in a high tech planted tank.

Regular water changes mean your tank water is close to the shop water in chemistry (hopefully).

I have done planted tanks with no water changes. Tanks did well but I tended to have fish lost when I did do a water change (although these were very large water changes and too much for fish to handle).

Edit - chloride building up would be a concern here as my tap water seems naturally high in it.

Thank you for the info in the 3rd paragraph, its nice to get a response with someone who has had some experience with a tank like this to back up their answers. Good point in the first paragraph.

How often did you do changes, and how much water? I'm also trying to figure out, if it is necessary to still do PWC, is it still necessary to do them weekly, or is once every 2 weeks plenty or maybe every three?

One thing I don't understand that both of you say though, is how salts would build up? Unless you mean by adding salts without doing a PWC.

 

[Angela1108]

As water evaporates it leaves behind the salts.


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[Delapool]

Thank you for the info in the 3rd paragraph, its nice to get a response with someone who has had some experience with a tank like this to back up their answers. Good point in the first paragraph.

I'm just confused about how salts and chlorides would build up. Unless you are topping off the water with untreated tap and adding salts without doing a water change?

My tank is a high tech planted tank with mainly community fish. Dry ferts dosing and co2 injection (not that the plants are great, just what tank is). It has covers so minimal evaporation.

Kh is my main problem. I've had no kh reading with the ph trending down before so I had to increase water changes to compensate for my soft water. If I didn't do the water change but replaced buffers, I've run into problems that the plants don't seem to like this (possibly iron phosphate problem using phosphate buffers although product is meant to be plant safe so maybe my brown thumb). If I use carbonate buffers like shells in tank this seems to maybe work a little better. Anyways I find all this adding stuff a slippery slope of unintended consequences so that is my main reason for a water change - just to replace buffers.

Second one coming to your question (I think) is if I didn't do a water change I would be relying on the plants to use the exact ratio of elements in the tank. Or I would need to dose that ratio (will find example link).

My tap water is high in chloride so I suspect the plants wouldn't use it all before running out of other elements in the balance they need. An element toxicity issue rather than element deficiency like kh. Can't confirm this though. I'd love to send some water samples to a lab once a month for a full report but can't really justify the cost.

It may not be chloride, etc but the main idea behind estimative index (E.I.) ferts dosing is to estimate slightly in excess of what the plants need (ie be light constrained), dose and then do a 50% water change each week to re-set tank.


Edit - Hoagland solution I was thinking of which suggests a ratio of elements for plants. I'd imagine it varies by plant types. If I tried doing a no water change tank again, I'd love to get water chemistry reports and see what happens.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoagland_solution

 

[Bubs]

So in summary, it seems that the real problem is keeping minerals and ph in balance, not keeping waste from building up as people were originally saying. That makes much more sense to me. Thank you, Delapool, for your long post explaining why you think this.

And thanks for the resource, will take a look.

 

[Angela1108]

Aka post number 2 where I said that


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[Sniperhank]

This thread has been cleaned up a bit. Let me be frank, be nice. This rule is taken seriously. If this continues the thread will be closed and the issue will be managed. Thank you.

 

[Delapool]

What fish shouldn't have salt?? I haven't read of any who can't have salt at all. Even catfish benefit from some salt, they just can't handle the same amount that most other fish can. But according to tests that were done on catfish being raised for food, they actually benefit from occasional short periods of high salt levels. Those treated with occasional high levels of salt even had longer lifespans than those not treated with any salt and than those given a constant low level of salt.



.

Out of interest would you have a link on this?

 

[Coursair]

Old school way was to add 1 tablespoon of Aquarium Salt per 5g.

I used to set up all my tanks that way.

But now I have planted tanks. And many plants are intolerant of too much salt. I also keep Corydoras. Experts tell me they are sensitive to salt. I have a club member that breeds them.

One of the issues adding salt to a tank is that at low levels it is hard to measure exactly how much you have. And over time salt builds up.

I currently never add salt to my tanks.

If I had an outbreak of Ich, I would isolate the fish and use heat and salt to treat it as a temporary measure.

I sometimes have rare plants in my tanks. I also keep tiny species of Coreys. So I will always aim for ideal conditions for these fish. I also breed Shrimp.










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