T5 vs. MH vs. LED

[Gregcoyote]

I don't believe a 20-30nm difference in a LED color means much to a coral. It's intensity.

Not meaning to downplay your technical knowledge, I just didn't like your tone and thinking your education and training is any better than many of the rest of us. Sorry if I misunderstood you.


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[Maridia]

In my case, I didn't keep the emitter cool enough. My fault really as I had no idea how hot they got compared to a regular LED. Stupid mistake as I was using 100 watt matrix LEDs in my home made lights and on flood lights we put in big buses. Needs a very effective heat sink. Kessle has designed a nice light and I am sure it will serve you a long time!


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Thanks for the info. I currently have mine on a goose neck addition hanging over the tank. It's a pretty open space, should I take further precautions?

 

[Gregcoyote]

I think your using it exactly as designed. Good airflow around the fixture.


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[mr_X]

If you have no actual experience with a fixture, then you have no experience with it. I have plenty of experience with these fixtures, and just like these fixtures can be filled with sub-standard components, so can any other company's units, if the stock market doesn't go right or if sales are down.
The bottom line, no matter how much schooling anyone here has, is that any one of those cheapo units (I've tried many that looked slightly different and they all did the same job) can grow corals just fine with lower wattage, no bulb changes and very little heat.
Who here is measuring PUR? Last I checked , no one had that sort of equipment. If someone suddenly has, why not put these relentless debates to rest?

 

[jeffaquarius]

So which is better kessil or the chinese fixture?

 

[Gregcoyote]

So which is better kessil or the chinese fixture?

IMO, if I were to have a frag farm, I would use Chinese fixtures and consider them expendable. It's about money then. But for a nice fixture you can run exposed and looks high tech and is usually full spectrum, your choice is really nice too. I can appreciate the engineering and design that's in a fixture like yours. But both grow coral.


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[jeffaquarius]

Although I never said 1 Kessil can cover a 6' tank, I did say they will output 3-4 times as much light. Of course it is down, and only a fool would use 1 light over such a large tank.

As for using PAR, instead of lumens, that is stupid. PAR is a dangerous term that means nothing. PUR is the value you should be recommending. If the frequency/wavelength of light is wrong (ie green) all the par in the world won't satisfy corals. PUR is the narrower part of the wide PAR band (PAR IS EVERYTING FROM 400-700 nm) that photosynthesis occurs. Other than the fact that PAR meters are much cheaper than PUR meters, they can lead to a dangerous misunderstanding of light received.

As for nobody using lumens, that's absolutely wrong. Just your misunderstanding of what lumens is. Lumens is the amount of light radiated by a fixture. And that was the correct context I was using it. It has nothing to do with light on the sand bed or anywhere else. And the useful rating of lumens per watt tells everybody how efficient a transmitter is at converting expensive electrical energy into light energy.

A lighting unit rated at 30 lumens per watt will swallow 4 times the electricity as a 120 lumen per watt fixture, all else being equal. Of course Kessil, producing their own LEDs, and other companies like radion that get the newest edition LEDs from the first bins will NOT be equal to cheap units that get the bulbs from what we refer to as the garbage bins.

Lumens - good rating for fixture's transmission
PUR - good rating for light received by corals
PAR - bad rating for light received by corals


Glen
Electronics Technologist
Communications specialist

I agree 100% to what you are saying. PAR is the amount of light generated but not necessarily totally used by corals. It is the amount of light within a band of frequency for plants, corals and others. You can have a very bright light but if it is not in that band of frequency, you can burn your corals without enough PUR. In short, the right frequency of the light and its intensity are responsible to produce the right PUR. Has anyone heard someone used lighting fixture for plants in his reef tank? It has enough PAR but not enough PUR for corals. As i was saying LEDs are not created equal in the sense that they have different applications and efficiency. They can also be used for house lighting and automobile and they have different frequency (color) or Kelvin rating. That is why we refer to spectrograph of a light fixture before we buy it. Here is the reason why taotronics don't have one. It is a shotgun light. It may be cheaper but you are wasting energy.

http://aquariumopinions.com/2012/03/02/taotronics-skyled-led-light-reviews/

.

 

[Maridia]

So which is better kessil or the chinese fixture?

I guess that's like asking which is better, a Ford Focus or a bmw. Both will serve their purpose in taking you where you need to go for a long time. But the bmw is a better quality vehicle, looks nicer, and may last you longer. But you also pay more moolah. I wanted a very nice tank, one where I wouldn't feel the need to upgrade the lights in the future, so I worked some overtime and got the Kissel. Everyone has an opinion though.


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[mr_X]

I never said a Kessil wasn't as good as one of these units, I simply said they work, and work well for much less than anything else. If you have unlimited funds, I vote Radion XR30W Pro.

Doug
Commercial driver
Hoopty lighting specialist

 

[mr_X]

I agree 100% to what you are saying. PAR is the amount of light generated but not necessarily totally used by corals. It is the amount of light within a band of frequency for plants, corals and others. You can have a very bright light but if it is not in that band of frequency, you can burn your corals without enough PUR. In short, the right frequency of the light and its intensity are responsible to produce the right PUR. Has anyone heard someone used lighting fixture for plants in his reef tank? It has enough PAR but not enough PUR for corals. As i was saying LEDs are not created equal in the sense that they have different applications and efficiency. They can also be used for house lighting and automobile and they have different frequency (color) or Kelvin rating. That is why we refer to spectrograph of a light fixture before we buy it. Here is the reason why taotronics don't have one. It is a shotgun light. It may be cheaper but you are wasting energy.

TaoTronics, SkyLED, Skkye Marine, LED Light Reviews | My Aquarium Opinions

.

PAR is not the amount of light generated...that's lumens. PAR is the amount of light generated in that is between 400 and 700nm.
LOL..I've heard the term "shotgun" plenty of times. Last I checked, a shotgun was the best way to protect your home- it's a definite win win situation! Yes, Give me a shotgun when I have corals. I want to blast them with light! It just means you won't miss.
120 watts v. s. 90 watts for kessil? Not very much waste if you ask me.
Radion pro- 170 watts
hydra 52- 135 watts.

Yes, I've used a 6500k lamp to grow corals. Not pretty, but they grew well.

 

[PB_Smith]

TaoTronics, SkyLED, Skkye Marine, LED Light Reviews | My Aquarium Opinions

can't really argue with the facts and technical specs, and it appears that the old axim applies here as well;

If it sounds too good to be true.....

 

[mr_X]

That's not fact, that's opinion, and copied and pasted many times. The author never tested PUR readings from any of the fixtures he wrote about, and neither did the guy he copied from.
It doesn't sound "too good to be true". It is what it is, a cheap light with very little options that happens to grow sps corals in 30" of water. Piss your money away on tank bling if you like. I prefer to spend the money on corals.

 

[PB_Smith]

That's not fact, that's opinion, and copied and pasted many times. The author never tested PUR readings from any of the fixtures he wrote about, and neither did the guy he copied from.
It doesn't sound "too good to be true". It is what it is, a cheap light with very little options that happens to grow sps corals in 30" of water. Piss your money away on tank bling if you like. I prefer to spend the money on corals.

Did you actually read it and understand the point being made?
The types of components used to construct the lights isn't "opinion".
The efficiency of those components isn't "opinion".
He never said coral won't grow with those lights, just that they use inferior components that translates into less efficiency and more electricity consumed.

From that perspective, over time those lights are not as cheap. Maybe initial setup cost is low by comparison, but over the life of the product you loose that initial savings in higher energy consumption.

you're right it is what it is, a cheap light made with cheap, second rate components that are inefficient.

 

[Gregcoyote]

PAR is not the amount of light generated...that's lumens. PAR is the amount of light generated in that is between 400 and 700nm.
LOL..I've heard the term "shotgun" plenty of times. Last I checked, a shotgun was the best way to protect your home- it's a definite win win situation! Yes, Give me a shotgun when I have corals. I want to blast them with light! It just means you won't miss.
120 watts v. s. 90 watts for kessil? Not very much waste if you ask me.
Radion pro- 170 watts
hydra 52- 135 watts.

Yes, I've used a 6500k lamp to grow corals. Not pretty, but they grew well.

That's what I thought I said 15 posts ago. But we seem to like to find ways to argue over points that have long been put to bed. Nuff said.


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[mr_X]

Did you actually read it and understand the point being made?
The types of components used to construct the lights isn't "opinion".
The efficiency of those components isn't "opinion".
He never said coral won't grow with those lights, just that they use inferior components that translates into less efficiency and more electricity consumed.

From that perspective, over time those lights are not as cheap. Maybe initial setup cost is low by comparison, but over the life of the product you loose that initial savings in higher energy consumption.

you're right it is what it is, a cheap light made with cheap, second rate components that are inefficient.

Second rate? Maybe. Inefficient? Hardly. well, I've been using these units for years now...when am I going to start seeing the loss of savings? The facts I posted earlier, are that these units are more or less the same wattage as everyone elses.

 

[Gregcoyote]

Did you actually read it and understand the point being made?
The types of components used to construct the lights isn't "opinion".
The efficiency of those components isn't "opinion".
He never said coral won't grow with those lights, just that they use inferior components that translates into less efficiency and more electricity consumed.

From that perspective, over time those lights are not as cheap. Maybe initial setup cost is low by comparison, but over the life of the product you loose that initial savings in higher energy consumption.

you're right it is what it is, a cheap light made with cheap, second rate components that are inefficient.

Okay, let's take your point and use some math on it, rather than speculation. If a Tao light takes 20% more energy to generate the same PAR a Radion generates ( and it doesn't) then the difference in price between the fixtures is almost $400. In my city a kilowatt hour costs $.09.

So the energy difference at 20% is less than 2 cents per KWH. That's 20,000 KWH before you equal the cost of the Radion. Or roughly 22,000 days at 8 hours a day. (At 120 watts)

You don't get the bling you get with the Radion, but the resultant energy efficiency is a non starter and not a reason to buy such a expensive fixture, unless you just want one. Which is as good a reason you can get.


I was one of the very first to import and sell the Chinese fixtures, in fact Mr_X got shipped one of my first ones before they got popular on eBay. He kindly tested it for me. I took nothing but grief for the first year from the MH and T5 groups, until they saw how well they grew corals, then the trolling stopped. Those were the days, I got called everything in the book because everyone knew then that LEDs were a scam. There is no right answer, just what works for you.

I moved on to RapidLed and Cree emitters for my display tank (wanted full spectrum) but still use the old Chinese LEDs for my ATS, soft coral frag and Stoney coral frag systems.


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[PB_Smith]

Okay, let's take your point and use some math on it, rather than speculation.

again, neither I nor the author of the linked article said anything about whether or not coral will grow using these lights, they merely raised some valid questions concerning the quality of the components used, the actual efficiency of those components and whether or not they actually produce the light spectrums they claim.

True, the actual energy $$$ concerned are trivial, but the fact still remains concerning the efficiency of the individual components.
There is a reason they are a fraction of the cost of other units and it isn't solely because of where they are coming from.

that article called into question their longevity and the warranty.
How long have you guys been running them and how do they fair in regards to heat generation in comparison to others, as that was one of the main contentions of the article,
inefficient components=wasted electricity=heat=short life span.

what is your take on that point of the article.

As I don't currently have any LED lights, I am not emotionally invested in one over another, I'm just looking at the information provided and regardless of personal opinions, the numbers have to be considered.

personally, after research/shopping around, I'm leaning towards making my own unit as finances permit as being the most concise answer for me.

 

[Gregcoyote]

I would agree that making your own unit makes sense. That's what I did.

The Chinese panels I have used don't run especially hot, but Chinese drivers are notorious for being poor quality (led drivers...). That being said I saw a 5% failure rate after a year. Since the panels are so cheap, you can decide to replace a $25 driver or the whole panel. In the case of a big facility growing corals, that's what I would use and discard them if and when they go bad.


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[PB_Smith]

I would agree that making your own unit makes sense. That's what I did.

The Chinese panels I have used don't run especially hot, but Chinese drivers are notorious for being poor quality (led drivers...). That being said I saw a 5% failure rate after a year. Since the panels are so cheap, you can decide to replace a $25 driver or the whole panel. In the case of a big facility growing corals, that's what I would use and discard them if and when they go bad.


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then, without my wanting to sound like jerk, the article was correct about the components, right?

 

[Gregcoyote]

Painting with a pretty broad brush IMO. The first Chinese panels I would agree left something to be desired, but the newer generation are far better. There are also domestic panels that are a waste of money.

When one panel costs $100 and the other similar spec panel costs $500 there needs to be a more dramatic difference for me to get excited. And you certainly don't sound like a jerk to me. I try very hard to treat everyone with respect, until I snap...These are good topics to debate, it's just been going on for a long time.

I do like my DIY RapidLed setup as a fixture using Cree LEDs that I pick the mix on gives me flexibility and computer control for about twice the cost of a Tao unit and that suits me fine.


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