90 Gal Tank Disaster

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caudelfin

Aquarium Advice Regular
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
98
Location
Tupelo MS
My 90 gal had perked along really good for two months. Then while doing a pwc with a new twp with ammonia locking the water became cloudy. I did more changes and used more of this product.

The next morning most of the fish were acting strange. I tested the water for ammonia and it was high, so I add more of the product to protect the fish as per label. The label said to then add more every two days. But after a few hours I checked the water with an ammonia test kit that ignores the chemicals added to protect fish and the ammonia reading was very high I add more and soon my fish were dying and the ammonia reading was now off the chart.

I quickly removed the living fish, 4 Tiger Barbs and the two Paradise Fish into my 10 gal qt tank. Then still not realizing what had happened I had a teaspoon of this product to it. I drained the 90 gal and took the XP - 3 apart. It smelled really really bad. Almost like rotten eggs. But also like pure hypo.

Remembering that I had just add the same twp to my 10 gal qt earlier, I quickly did a 50% water change in it. I checked it for ammonia and it was beginning to show a small amount. Then in a couple of hours I did another 50% water change. But the little male Barb did not make it, He jumped out of the tank at some point and I found him dried out in front of the 10 gal tank. This AM the ammonia reading was off the chart in the 10 gal. I moved the three Barbs and the two Paradise Fish into a peaceful tank because I had no more tanks that had been cycled. I suppose they will kill off the peaceful fish, but they are very old and dying off rapidly. I may very well be without a tank or fish soon. I don't know how much of this stuff will kill of the good bacteria, when I netted the Barbs and Paradise Fish there must have been a few drops on the net.

I will stick with the stuff that I had always used before, Amquel, Prime and Start Right. It seems this stuff that I bought on a recommendation from the lfs is killing off all the good bacteria.

My question now is can I remove this odor and perhaps the same chemical from my tank, ornaments, and canister filters by using some bleach in the tank to sterilize everything. How about the ceramic rings. If I bleach them then dry them and then soak them in Start Right or Prime will everything be good to go again?
 
First of all, I am so sorry to hear about this - it is truly a disaster and it is such a shame to have to deal with this.

If the only thing you are concerned about being in the tank is ammonia, then I would do nothing and allow the tank to fishless cycle again, and other than cleaning out the filter I would not tear the tank down.

I am really wondering about this twp. Does it actually contain ammonia? What brand is it? Could it be that you are removing chlorine but not chloramine? Chloramine in your tap water will kill your fish and kill your biofilter as well, and cause the scenario you describe.
 
NOOOOOO !!

do NOT use ammo-lock !!
this product gives you FALSE readings & interferes with the cycle (regardless of whether the tank if fully cycled or not)

trust me - i learned the hard way !!

here is what you do - go out and buy some PRIME (seachem) -
you will NEVER have to worry about cycling again and/or high ammonia readings.

also, IF you have detected ammonia -
there are ONLY 4 solutions
1) do a 25-50% water change
2) clean the filter (too much waste - bacteria cannot handle the amount of waste)
3) INCREASE aeration (insufficient oxygen in the tank to cater for fish and bacteria)
4) too many fish (overstocked tank)
 
Quite right - I did not catch that about "ammonia locking." You need ammonia to feed your bacteria that keep your tank cycled, so you do not want to bind it up and starve out the biofilter. I don't think there is ever any reason that I would use an ammonia-locking chemical in my tanks, or ammonia removing media in my filter. I use Prime as well but any dechlorinator that removes chlorine and chloramine will do the trick for you - nothing fancy is necessary.
 
yes - ammonia locking products really Mess with your readings & biofilter.

in my opinion, they should be BANNED :lol: :lol: :lol:
no honestly, there really is no use for them
they PREVENT the tank from cycling correctly

if anything, ammonia locking products should ONLY be used for temporary circumstances
e.g. when moving house, hence for a couple of hours.
 
i forgot to add...

switch back to the original water conditioner you were using before this happened.
(Amquel, Prime)

also
IF there are traces of that ammo-lock left in your tank - it will continue to mess with your readings and biofilter.

to remove the ammo-lock from the tank
continue to do large water changes daily (for a week) using the Amquel, Prime water conditioner.
Eventually the ammo-lock will have been diluted to almost zero and the new water conditioner (amquel, prime) will be the primary conditioner in the tank.
 
sorry to hear that caudelfin. i know you wanted the best for your fish, but well...we live and learn.
building on TG and Bubble_B0y's explanation, i think the stink in your filter is caused by the death of your bio-filter colony due to ammonia starvation. though i'm not sure if it'll cause such a foul odour. but i think a good rinse and a sun-bath would make them as good as new.
 
TankGirl said:
First of all, I am so sorry to hear about this - it is truly a disaster and it is such a shame to have to deal with this.

If the only thing you are concerned about being in the tank is ammonia, then I would do nothing and allow the tank to fishless cycle again, and other than cleaning out the filter I would not tear the tank down.

I am really wondering about this twp. Does it actually contain ammonia? What brand is it? Could it be that you are removing chlorine but not chloramine? Chloramine in your tap water will kill your fish and kill your biofilter as well, and cause the scenario you describe.

Bubble_BOy has it right, never use Ammo-Lock. It caused this disaster. I am wondering about how much of the ammo-lock still remains. I have drained the tank completely. I will refill and drain again then start a new fishless cycle. I do not think ammo-lock has any ammonia, I feel sure it did wipe out the bacteria in both tanks that I used it in. It is supposed to take care of chlorine and chloramine too and as well protect your fish from any ammonia.

How many Tiger Barbs ( I would like 10) and 6 Rosy Barbs may I use in a 90 gal. Does not seem like a big load for a 90 gal tank. I can cut it to 6 Tigers and 6 Rosys. I prefer a light bioload for the tank so I do not have to make a twp very often. I really like to watch the fish, not constantly make pwc's and clean filters. I retired to get away from working overtime. So I would like to have no more than half a bioload in this tank. Treat it as a 45 - 60 gal tank. What would be a good algae eater to go with these slightly hostile little fellows?

I have used AmQuel for years with success. Then a friend got me to switch to PRIME and I have found it is really great. And recently I have used Start Right which I used when I first started keeping fish. It works too. But I think PRIME is the only way to go after using it for several years. I used some Start Right because it is available locally and PRIME is not. It started the tank and keep it running for two months. So until I can get another order off I will be using Start Right.

I cannot find any chlorine-chloramine test kits. I had one with Quick Dip test strips but used all of them, now I cannot find any kind locally nor in the catalogs. Has anyone had trouble locating these test kits? Strips or any other kind
Thanks
caudelfin
 
I don't test for chlorine or chloramine - I know it is present in my tap water so I pretreat for it automatically. I would not worry about testing for it as long as you use a dechlor product.

Your stocking sounds fine to me - 10 or 11 tiger barbs and 6-8 rosy barbs would make a very active interesting tank. Those numbers are plenty to keep the barbs in their own camps and not causing trouble.
 
caudelfin said:
TankGirl said:
First of all, I am so sorry to hear about this - it is truly a disaster and it is such a shame to have to deal with this.

If the only thing you are concerned about being in the tank is ammonia, then I would do nothing and allow the tank to fishless cycle again, and other than cleaning out the filter I would not tear the tank down.

I am really wondering about this twp. Does it actually contain ammonia? What brand is it? Could it be that you are removing chlorine but not chloramine? Chloramine in your tap water will kill your fish and kill your biofilter as well, and cause the scenario you describe.

Bubble_BOy has it right, never use Ammo-Lock. It caused this disaster. I am wondering about how much of the ammo-lock still remains. I have drained the tank completely. I will refill and drain again then start a new fishless cycle. I do not think ammo-lock has any ammonia, I feel sure it did wipe out the bacteria in both tanks that I used it in. It is supposed to take care of chlorine and chloramine too and as well protect your fish from any ammonia.

How many Tiger Barbs ( I would like 10) and 6 Rosy Barbs may I use in a 90 gal. Does not seem like a big load for a 90 gal tank. I can cut it to 6 Tigers and 6 Rosys. I prefer a light bioload for the tank so I do not have to make a twp very often. I really like to watch the fish, not constantly make pwc's and clean filters. I retired to get away from working overtime. So I would like to have no more than half a bioload in this tank. Treat it as a 45 - 60 gal tank. What would be a good algae eater to go with these slightly hostile little fellows?

I have used AmQuel for years with success. Then a friend got me to switch to PRIME and I have found it is really great. And recently I have used Start Right which I used when I first started keeping fish. It works too. But I think PRIME is the only way to go after using it for several years. I used some Start Right because it is available locally and PRIME is not. It started the tank and keep it running for two months. So until I can get another order off I will be using Start Right.

I cannot find any chlorine-chloramine test kits. I had one with Quick Dip test strips but used all of them, now I cannot find any kind locally nor in the catalogs. Has anyone had trouble locating these test kits? Strips or any other kind
Thanks
caudelfin

don't worry caudelfin - We Live and Learn :wink:
the EXACT same thing happened to me.
I had a tank with almost $100 dollars of prized bubble-eye goldfish.

One day, my PRIME conditioner bottle was empty.
So I went to the store to buy some water conditioner.
I was browsing in my LFS for a water conditioner, when I saw "aquarium parmaceuticals - ammolock"

ammolock1g.jpg


this product was cheaper than Prime.
You recieved twice as much for half the price.
And it could also be used as a water conditioner (removes chlorine/chloramine)
So i figured - hey its cheaper and does the same job as Prime.

Little did I know what was installed........ :evil: :twisted:
The moment I used this product for my next water change - my fish when PSYCHO !!!!
not eating, darting, sleeping at the bottom, gasping for air.

So I checked my water parameters. There was ammonia (kinda strange when you NEVER had ammonia in your life - especially when there was no dead fish, no overfeeding and no overstocking)
So I figured - hey, lets add MORE ammo-lock to protect the fish.
"ABSOLUTE DISASTER"

the more I added, the more it got worse.
It took another $50 later (of more dead fish, and wasted good bacteria products) to realise it was the ammo-lock causing this disaster.

I speak from experience - I just wish someone had warned me.

RIP mr. bubbles
 
UGH.. man thats horrible.. sorry to hear about the bad news caudefin..

This is my spin on Amino-lock.. I dont think it binds the ammonia were it cant be used by the filter but it still will give you deadly ammonia readings even when there isnt any that can be nauxtious to the fish.. I still think the bound ammonia causes ill fish behavior and possibly some deaths of more delicate fish but the product incourges overdosing if you test for ammonia giving you the dead everything situation.. This is what I gatther from my experiance with it.. you can have sucess if you ignore or dont test but your taking a big risk just trusting it to keep your ammonia non lethal.. Its easier to just keep the levels down with water changes.. Is this similar to anyone elses experiance with this product.. Im in the it was so long ago no-one really had a good idea how the stuff worked situation..
 
greenmaji said:
This is my spin on ammo-lock.. it will still give you deadly ammonia readings even when there isnt any ........
the product encourages overdosing if you test for ammonia giving you the dead everything situation.

EXACTLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Wow, this is terrible. I have always heard never to use Ammo-Lock, but this story really drives the point home. I will be spreading the word to anyone who listens.

Thanks, and I'm so sorry about your fish.
 
TankGirl said:
Quite right - I did not catch that about "ammonia locking." You need ammonia to feed your bacteria that keep your tank cycled, so you do not want to bind it up and starve out the biofilter. I don't think there is ever any reason that I would use an ammonia-locking chemical in my tanks, or ammonia removing media in my filter. I use Prime as well but any dechlorinator that removes chlorine and chloramine will do the trick for you - nothing fancy is necessary.

I have used AmQuel for years and it says the same thing, and it says it will not prevent the bacteria from getting to the ammonia. And I can testify after many years of use it does not and it does protect the fish if you have an ammonia spike for any reason. Whether I use it or Start Right which has no fish protection from ammonia, the cycle time was the same, roughly between 36 and 40 days. And I would have no problem using it but it is not available here either. It does take a salicylate ammonia test kit to get a correct reading when using Amquel and that is the type test kit that I am using. It should give correct readings when using Ammo-Lock also. I is made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals.

Just received the latest DrsFoster&Smith catalog and it does have the chlorine-chloramine test strips in it. So they can be ordered.
caudelfin
 
Really sorry to hear about this unfortunate event caudelfin. It's unfortunate that we learn the problems that additives can cause after the damage is done.

I had always been leery of any product that claims to "bind" a particular chemical. Logic tells me that the "larger" mass has to still be broken down at some point somewhere along the nitrogen cycle. Since bacteria is the only thing that we know of that will do this, I pictured a really large piece of ammonia overwhelming a very tiny nitrosoma.

I agree with TG in not tearing the tank down. You have enough to start the cycle over via the fishless method.
 
TankGirl said:
I don't test for chlorine or chloramine - I know it is present in my tap water so I pretreat for it automatically. I would not worry about testing for it as long as you use a dechlor product.

Your stocking sounds fine to me - 10 or 11 tiger barbs and 6-8 rosy barbs would make a very active interesting tank. Those numbers are plenty to keep the barbs in their own camps and not causing trouble.

My problem is the water treatment plant, they change almost daily the amount of chloramine that they add or at least the amount that I draw from the tap changes, and I like to know how much PRIME to add. Sometimes it is very low and I only need to add one dose for 30 gals. Next time I do a water change it may be much higher and I need one dose per the recommended 10 gals. I guess I could always assume that it will never go higher than that but when I make assumptions I tend to get into trouble. As you noted PRIME is not the lowest cost treatment available. Like to save it when I can.
:p
caudelfin
 
Both Amquel and Ammo-Lock say ammonia is changed to a chemical that will not harm the fish. I suspected that was Ammonium and I called Aquarium Pharmaceuticals and they said yes it was a form of Ammonium ions. Now my pond is loaded with enough of ammonia to kill my pond fish instantly if it was not changed chemically because the pH is so very low. That is the very low pH changes the ammonia to ammonium and as long as I maintain the low pH no problem. And since the pond gets only rain water to keep it filled the pH remains low.

Thus all those goldfish in an overloaded pond swim about happily and go nuts when they see me approach the pond wanting to be fed. The bacteria in an aquarium and in a pond can use the ammonium. Makes no difference to them you see, so there must be something else in the stuff. I just called and reported the problem to Aquarium Pharmaceuticals and they want me to send them a small clean bottle of the stuff for them to test it to see what is wrong. I know it will be nothing wrong with their product, I have dealt with too many technical computer desks to believe anything will come of it. Still on an off chance, I am sending them a small bottle of their product tomorrow.
caudelfin
 
Plants are another reason the goldfish are happy in their pond, assuming there are plants, because the plants will uptake the ammonium.

I am having a bit of trouble with the notion that Ammo-Loc will instantly crash the tank biofilter and immediately (or almost so) kill all of the fish. Many people use this product without such results, though over time it does work against you, IMO.
 
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