Adopted a 55g - Maybe Oops?

[Bent Needle]

Mr. Pleco has been dropped off at my LFS, whoohoo! Progress. Getting him out was actually much less dramatic than I thought it would be, after seeing him splash around trying to go from bucket to tank before. Guess having a net the correct size really does make a difference. Imagine that. Also learned from the guy at the fish store that they're possible to pick up with your hand if you know where to grab them. The things I'm learning...

And after...5-6 water changes of 25%, I've lost track, the nitrates are still around 80 ppm. It's not changing color quite as fast as it was though, so I'm hopeful it's helping.

Would the algae eater terrorize some corys? Also do they ever eat anything but what they find in the tank? I've tried algae wafers and it absolutely ignores them, and doesn't go after the flakes either. Maybe veggies, like a piece of cucumber or zucchini or even lettuce?

Also I won't be adding anything to this tank for quite awhile, just thinking of future possibilities.

 

[Andy Sager]

Mr. Pleco has been dropped off at my LFS, whoohoo! Progress. Getting him out was actually much less dramatic than I thought it would be, after seeing him splash around trying to go from bucket to tank before. Guess having a net the correct size really does make a difference. Imagine that. Also learned from the guy at the fish store that they're possible to pick up with your hand if you know where to grab them. The things I'm learning...

And after...5-6 water changes of 25%, I've lost track, the nitrates are still around 80 ppm. It's not changing color quite as fast as it was though, so I'm hopeful it's helping.

Would the algae eater terrorize some corys? Also do they ever eat anything but what they find in the tank? I've tried algae wafers and it absolutely ignores them, and doesn't go after the flakes either. Maybe veggies, like a piece of cucumber or zucchini or even lettuce?

Also I won't be adding anything to this tank for quite awhile, just thinking of future possibilities.

Well 80 is much better than 160+ Nothing good happens instantly. Keep up with the water changes. You are already seeing the benefits of the cleaner water so things should just keep getting better in time.
If the algae eater is getting what it needs to eat from the tank, there's no reason to feed extra foods. He looked pretty hefty so he obviously has been eating well. If you see a decline in weight, then I would try things like Nori sheets of algae or fresh spinach or Spirulina flakes and I've seen suggestions of shrimp pellets for the extra protein for them. As for him harassing Cories, it's a possibility if they compete for foods or space. As previously said, they are unpredictable. Different people have different experiences with them. Some aggressive, some passive.

 

[Bent Needle]

So excited that the nitrate test finally looked more orange than red after this morning's WC. Guessing ~30 ppm. I noticed one of the angels being super aggressive towards the other immediately after the change so I'm thinking maybe wait until tomorrow morning to do another instead of doing it tonight. But we'll see what the test says. Thank you all for so much help!

 

[Andy Sager]

So excited that the nitrate test finally looked more orange than red after this morning's WC. Guessing ~30 ppm. I noticed one of the angels being super aggressive towards the other immediately after the change so I'm thinking maybe wait until tomorrow morning to do another instead of doing it tonight. But we'll see what the test says. Thank you all for so much help!

There is a good possibility that the water changes have sparked the Angels into breeding mode. This was a common practice to get Angels to breed. To test the strength of their potential mates, the Male Angel will do a series of Lip Locking with the female to test her suitability and to entice her to breed. Unless he is going after other parts of the body, this is not aggression but pre spawning normal behavior. If this is aggression, you will need to separate the fish or add at least 3-4 more adults so that the aggression is spread out between the school. Angels live in a Hierarchy society so there will always be an "Alpha" fish and then subordinates. So #1 shows his position to #2. #2 shows their position to #3 and so on. When you have 2 fish that are trying to be the Alpha, eventually one can suffer damages that can become life threatening. Just so you know.
For now, I would continue doing the water change tonight. Better to interrupt spawning and reduce nitrates than to delay the better water conditions. Angels are prolific breeders so if you miss one spawn, they will give you many more chances to raise some fry. ( Mine bred as often as every 7-10 days. 10 pairs filled up 70 tanks in short order. LOL )

 

[Bent Needle]

Hmmmm well I haven't seen any lip-locking behavior so I think the one is just a d!ck. I've been watching them a lot (because honestly it would be cool to have a spawning pair). My long term plan/hope is to make this an angel tank, but I was planning on getting a few juveniles to raise together in a different tank before putting them all in together...sounds like I may not have time for that though. Not sure how to keep the one safe, it (he?) isn't bleeding but I saw the bully spit out some scales. Guess a divider, of some kind? Also not sure it actually matters but I'm 99% sure the bully is a male, it has a nuchal hump. The other one seems to have an entirely straight/flat head but is very slightly bigger, ironically.

I love challenges like this. But I would be really bummed if the one angel died because the other beat up on it so badly!

 

[Andy Sager]

Hmmmm well I haven't seen any lip-locking behavior so I think the one is just a d!ck. I've been watching them a lot (because honestly it would be cool to have a spawning pair). My long term plan/hope is to make this an angel tank, but I was planning on getting a few juveniles to raise together in a different tank before putting them all in together...sounds like I may not have time for that though. Not sure how to keep the one safe, it (he?) isn't bleeding but I saw the bully spit out some scales. Guess a divider, of some kind? Also not sure it actually matters but I'm 99% sure the bully is a male, it has a nuchal hump. The other one seems to have an entirely straight/flat head but is very slightly bigger, ironically.

I love challenges like this. But I would be really bummed if the one angel died because the other beat up on it so badly!

Sadly, usual physical characteristics of males and females no longer hold true. I saw this BEAUTIFUL "male" Marble Veiltail with a large nuchal hump at a shop and when asked about selling it ( it was alone in their display tank), the owner told me He wouldn't sell her and Oh by the way, he lays eggs every 10 days. So the only way to know definitely is to see their reproductive tubes.
As for protecting the fish, either a divider or placing the fish in a separate tank will be about only way to ensure it's safety.
As for breeding the Angels, you should know that because Angels are cichlids, they have a rather brutal pre-nuptial courtship and quite often, there is physical damage to one or both. You can read about other breeder's experiences as well as mine here: https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f82/wigglers-at-last-237956.html
The general rule of thumb is that if you don't want damaged fish, don't breed Angelfish. I don't recall if this story was in that Wigglers... thread or on another site but I had one female that beat the ever lovin' crap out of all her mates before she would spawn with them. I had 3 different males with her and she plucked out an eye on each male. She was brutal but she laid between 500-800 viable eggs per spawn so I had to put up with her nonsense. So you can see, they are not called Angelfish because they are Angelic. They are named that only for their shape. If you want to keep a school of them, I suggest you get adult proven males to keep the aggression to hierarchy issues and not spawning issues.

 

[Bent Needle]

Oh, wow. Clearly all my google-ing led me astray, I thought the nuchal hump was a definite tell! Welp. Guess it's just wait and see. I'm both intrigued and invested now...maybe I'll get a piece of slate and put it in there, it would be really cool to watch them spawn (and maybe do that several times) and maybe eventually raise a brood. Of course they could be two males or two females too, haha.

That thread is absolutely fascinating! And I've only made it through about the first 10 pages.

 

[Andy Sager]

Oh, wow. Clearly all my google-ing led me astray, I thought the nuchal hump was a definite tell! Welp. Guess it's just wait and see. I'm both intrigued and invested now...maybe I'll get a piece of slate and put it in there, it would be really cool to watch them spawn (and maybe do that several times) and maybe eventually raise a brood. Of course they could be two males or two females too, haha.

That thread is absolutely fascinating! And I've only made it through about the first 10 pages.

If these were wild fish, the physical characteristics would be more " spot on" but the domestication of these fish have caused physical traits to change. Truth is, I've never seen a nuchal hump on a wild Angelfish ( and I've seem a lot of wild Angelfish in my import business. ) In some species that are difficult to sex, selective breeding for particular attributes alters the fish. I believe that is what happened to domestic Angelfish.
As for the thread, yeah, there is A LOT of information in it. The up sides and the down sides. The good part is that it's information from people around the country who shared their experiences. When you are done with that thread, here's one I did about my most recent ( but now closed) Angelfish hatchery. https://www.aquariumadvice.com/foru...-a-hatchery-and-everything-angels-324616.html

There is a lot of information about this particular fish specie because it's been in the hobby for a long time.

 

[Bent Needle]

Hello! I'm back, as I knew I would be, with more questions and issues. Haha.

The angelfish are doing great, no sign of eggs or anything despite many times of chasing, lip-locking, etc, which is fine, I'm not trying to turn into a fish breeder. Maybe they're the same sex, maybe conditions aren't quite right, it's fine. They eat the flake food they came with (NutriDiet Marine Plus w/Probiotics) twice a day like little piranhas (not quite, but they are very happy eaters). I wasn't really excited about that food, so I got some cichlid bug bites, some vibra bites, and some freeze dried brine shrimp to alternate with, and they won't touch any of them! The only new thing they will try are the frozen bloodworms I've been putting in once a week. Should I just give up on the other stuff? Fast them for a few days and then only offer the new stuff? It seems like it's the hard texture they're objecting to, I've seen them many times try both the bug bites and vibra bites and immediately spit them back out.

The severum I'm more concerned about - seems to have a tiny bacterial node (maybe?) on its side. It's the size of a pinhead but wasn't there when he came and hasn't grown since it showed up. Also has a sort of white patch on its tail, but that was there when I got it, I just can't decide if it's gotten bigger or not. It occasionally does this weird, violent shake thing for about 1-2 seconds, only observed right after I add food in (and I watch these fish A LOT). But it doesn't seem to want to eat. It shows a little bit of interest in the flakes (which I have been reassured was all they all got with their original owner), but not much and usually only once a large one has reached the bottom of the tank. It doesn't even notice the bug bites and tried the vibra bites but immediately spit it out. It DOES go crazy for the blood worms and is a great little vacuum for any that reach the substrate. UGH. I feel like it's really not eating enough but it's not good to feed bloodworms every day, right?

Ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 10-15 ppm, 25-30% waterchanges 2x/week. Temp 80 degrees. No changes or new additions to the tank since it was moved into my house with the original occupants about a month ago.

 

[Andy Sager]

Well, if the Angels haven't killed each other by now, they are handling their business.
As for the foods, one of the problems when a fish is fed only one type of food, they get used to just the one type so they may not accept a new food. Freeze dried foods are a plus and minus. The plus side is that they are convenient for the hobbyist and most places carry them, the down side is that they are not always accepted and can cause digestive issues if the other foods being fed don't help manage the dried foods. I've always used live or frozen foods over freeze dried as it tends to be easier for the fish to digest them. For the Severum, I'd try frozen daphnia, frozen or live black worms, frozen gut loaded brine shrimp, or frozen mysis shrimp. All these foods will have protein and/or chiton in them so they are good for the fish's digestion.

At this point, I wouldn't discard the other freezedried foods yet but I'd try the other foods I mentioned first. If they start feeding on them regularly, you can try adding one of the foods into the daily feedings. The key is to get the fish to eat as many different foods as you can so that A) they don't get used to eating just one food and B) by eating a variety of foods, if you run out of one, the fish will still eat the others and C) different foods add different vitamins or minerals so "variety is the spice of life". . I'm not a fan of "starving a fish to get it to accept a new food. " There is always a possibility that a fish will just starve itself to death. Not worth that chance for me. There are always other foods to try. They are not eating something for a reason. You don't want the fish to eat out of desperation. The key is to vary the diet with every feeding and feed at least 2-3 times per day.

As for the mystery spot, a picture would help in figuring out what it may be.

 

[Bent Needle]

Thank you for the food advice! I will get some more frozen food and maybe try to source some black worms. I don't think my LFS carries any but I'll ask!

Pics attached! The white is much more pronounced in the pics than in real life, actually...eeek.

 

[Andy Sager]

Those may just be some secretions brought on by the diet or minor injuries. Considering how good the rest of the fish looks and you said they haven't enlarged since they showed up, I wouldn't be too concerned. If they start to grow or get fuzzy however, they would need to be treated.

 

[Bent Needle]

It looks good?? Oh, yay!! I have been getting more and more worried about it, I just get so anxious about these guys and they act different than any of the other fish I've had (never had anything larger than a bristlenose until these). Thank you for sharing your experience and expertise!

This forum is so much more helpful than the fish FB groups I've tried.

 

[Andy Sager]

It looks good?? Oh, yay!! I have been getting more and more worried about it, I just get so anxious about these guys and they act different than any of the other fish I've had (never had anything larger than a bristlenose until these). Thank you for sharing your experience and expertise!

This forum is so much more helpful than the fish FB groups I've tried.

Hang on!!!! .....I didn't say it looked good. What I said was at this point, it does not appear to be anything serious considering YOU SAID they haven't grown since they appeared. That usually means that it could be a mucus secretion to compensate for an irritation or it could be a secretion created by the diet. They do not look like a " normal" bacterial infection, fungal infection or parasite which means that I wouldn't be in a rush to treat them willy nilly with all kinds of meds that may or may not actually work. Observation is the key to catching things early enough to treat them. Keep an eye on the 2 spots for any growth or change in appearance.

As for FB fish groups, IMO, they leave a lot to be desired.

 

[Bent Needle]

Haha! Ok then. So I should keep an eye on them and try to get it to eat better, and hope they go away. Got it!

 

[Andy Sager]

Haha! Ok then. So I should keep an eye on them and try to get it to eat better, and hope they go away. Got it!

 

[Bent Needle]

Ok well, my spidey senses must have been going off. There is another white patch on the back fin, not the middle one but the upper one now. It doesn't appear to be fuzzy, but I suppose it could be...it just looks milky, really.

Still just keep on with trying to feed it more and do water changes, etc? Or should I treat in some way?

 

[Andy Sager]

Ok well, my spidey senses must have been going off. There is another white patch on the back fin, not the middle one but the upper one now. It doesn't appear to be fuzzy, but I suppose it could be...it just looks milky, really.

Still just keep on with trying to feed it more and do water changes, etc? Or should I treat in some way?

For now, keep going with the current plan. If there are more spots showing up, post the pic with as clear a close up view as you can get.

 

[Bent Needle]

Alrighty, thank you.

The severum ate a few bits of the frozen mysis shrimp I got yesterday, yay! The angels of course were ALL over it. I did see it (about half an hour after) regurgitate a small cloud of it though...ai yi. Maybe it just got too excited and ate too much?

I dived into the internet hole of sourcing and raising black worms though, and now I really want to try that. My LFS has some but I kept finding warnings about getting worm from an unknown source...and I know my LFS doesn't do any type of quarantine on new arrivals so I am somewhat skeptical of their standards.

 

[Andy Sager]

Alrighty, thank you.

The severum ate a few bits of the frozen mysis shrimp I got yesterday, yay! The angels of course were ALL over it. I did see it (about half an hour after) regurgitate a small cloud of it though...ai yi. Maybe it just got too excited and ate too much?

I dived into the internet hole of sourcing and raising black worms though, and now I really want to try that. My LFS has some but I kept finding warnings about getting worm from an unknown source...and I know my LFS doesn't do any type of quarantine on new arrivals so I am somewhat skeptical of their standards.

What you saw MAY have been some of the shells of the mysis. Watch for poo. 30 minutes in and the fish should have been digesting some of the food. If it doesn't eat it a second time, that's something to be addressed.
Yes, worms are a scary thing these days. Back in the day, we fed Tubifex (a.k.a. Sewer) worms exclusively and personally, I never had any issues. Today, that may not be possible so if you can get some and raise them yourself, you will have better control. What you want to do is separate the offspring from the parent worms to help keep the worm colony clean.