aggression

[klc9100]

i have 14 mbunas in a 75g. they are VERY aggressive / active. they are fun to watch, but the last few fish i added were immediately attacked. two were killed, the third, i took back out and returned to the per store with a fin missing and 1/2 a tail. i've been reading alot about aggression in cichlids lately. the 2 things i found that are suppose to help, are overstocking and lowering the temperature. i have two emperor 400's on it now and just ordered a magnum HOT 250. that will give me 1050gph (14 x turnover per hr.) with that much filtration, how many fish do yall think i can safely put in there??? i keep the temp around 80. how much could i safely lower the temp, to hopefully calm them down a bit??? a would also like to hear advice on techniques for adding new fish into an established tank. thanks.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I don't really subscribe to the "overstocking helps" theory when it comes to aggressive fish. I actually understock and give each fish their own territory.

The filtration doesn't dictate the amount of fish you can have in the tank IMO. There is still fish waste in the tank and when you add more fish, the amount of waste increases. It still has to be removed and no amount of filtration will remove the waste/Nitrates.

When it comes to Africans, the fish choices are iffy. You can't really give a specific amount nor say for sure which ones will work. What fish do you have in the tank right now? Not all Africans are equal. Some are more aggrssive than others and can cause issues no matter the tank mates.

When adding Mbuna to the tank, try rearranging the decor. Mix up the territories. Add new fish during feeding. It will distract the other fish for a bit and give the new ones a chance to roam around. But first lets start with which fish you have in the tank right now.

 

[klc9100]

I don't really subscribe to the "overstocking helps" theory when it comes to aggressive fish. I actually understock and give each fish their own territory.

IDK. i had just heard and read that in several places. what do you think the ideal # of mbunas would be in a 75???

The filtration doesn't dictate the amount of fish you can have in the tank IMO. There is still fish waste in the tank and when you add more fish, the amount of waste increases. It still has to be removed and no amount of filtration will remove the waste/Nitrates.

i would still do my water changes and vac the gravel once per week to get rid of the waste & nitrates. i've always thought the more filtration the better though, especially if the tank was packed.

When it comes to Africans, the fish choices are iffy. You can't really give a specific amount nor say for sure which ones will work. What fish do you have in the tank right now? Not all Africans are equal. Some are more aggressive than others and can cause issues no matter the tank mates.

i'm new to the hobby. i don't know much about the species. i didn't spend alot of money on particular genetics. i buy my fish from my lfs. they are assorted cichlids. i always buy them from the same display tank. i assumed, that meant they could be together.

When adding Mbuna to the tank, try rearranging the decor. Mix up the territories. Add new fish during feeding. It will distract the other fish for a bit and give the new ones a chance to roam around. But first lets start with which fish you have in the tank right now.

i found a cichlid ID chart on-line an attempted to identify what i have for you. to the best of my ability, this is what i have:

4 x metriaclima lombardoi
2 x pseudotropheus crabro
2 x labidochromis caeruleus
1 x labeotropheus trewavasae
1 x malanochromis auratus
1 x metriaclima estherae
1 x nimbochromis livingstonii
1 x jewel cichlid
1 x shiny silver w/ black verticle stripes (didn't really look like any at that link)

i've tried adding fish during feeding, but it didn't really seem to help. i've read it helps to add them at night, after the light is off. i've also read to add them during a water change. take the old water out, add the fish, and then start refilling. it said the old fish would be distracted by the filling process. have you ever heard of either of those???

how about the temp, do you think that helps??? supposedly, if you cool the water down some, it slows their metabolish and will have a calming effect. what do you think about that???

thanks again! ! ! ! !

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I have read it too in several places but based on my experience with my individual tank, overcrowing always led to more aggression. But that's with my specific tank. With Africans, nothing is every concrete and you have to try different avenues to determine what is best for your particular fish.

It is true that the more filtration the better, up to a certain point. Once you hit a certain point, anything over that doesn't really have a benefit except for water movement. If you are comparing 1x turnover rate to 5x turnover rate, sure the more filtration the better. But you get to a point when it doesn't matter how much more filtration you add, it isn't going to allow more fish.

Rrgarding your fish choices:

THe Lombardoi (AKA Kenyi) is a very aggressive fish. Males are yellow while females are blue. The males are extremely territorial and will harass tankmates to no end. I'm not suprised you are having issues. We had 2 breeding sets of Kenyi and the males would attack any other fish in the tank. We removed one male but the other continued the attacks until we finally removed him compeltly.

I'm not familiar with the crabro but they are also on the aggressive side (as far as Africans go).

Caeruleus (AKA Yellow Lab) is one of the most docile Mbuna you will find. They are considered Peaceful as far as Africans go. That doesn't mean house them with peaceful community, just other peaceful Africans. Are they usually picked on? If you add fish, increase this number. Theya re best in groupings.

I do not have any experience with the trewavasae. Are you sure on this breed? Does the mouth have the slight overhang or is it more defined like the lab?

The Auratus could also be the culprit. VERY mean African. One of the most aggressive. With the combination Kenyi and Auratus, that's just asking for trouble. We had a pair of Auratus and had to return them within 2 weeks. THe male terrorized the tank to no end. The female was calmer but once we removed the male, she began harassing the others.

The Estherae (AKA Red Zebra) is pretty docile. Another calm African. Should fit in well with the Labs.

The Nimbo is actually a Malawi Hap, not an Mbuna. Graceful fish, beautiful coloration. The males especially. Can be territorial but typically does well with most Africans. Can get territorial during breeding.

I have no experience with the Jewels so I can't help there.

The Shiny Silver one is probably a Hap or Peacock and most likely a female. Females tend to not have much in the form of coloration and are extremely difficult to determine the specie. Since they were bought from an Asst Cichlid tank, chances are most of these are not full breeds.

I keep my temp around 76. Try reducing slightly and see if the attitude improves. If not, you may want to reconsider the Auratus and Kenyi. Two of the most aggressive African Mbuna's together in one tank, I'm not suprised there is aggression issues.

Do you have plenty of rockwork with hidey holes?

 

[klc9100]

Rrgarding your fish choices:

THe Lombardoi (AKA Kenyi) is a very aggressive fish. Males are yellow while females are blue. The males are extremely territorial and will harass tankmates to no end. I'm not suprised you are having issues. We had 2 breeding sets of Kenyi and the males would attack any other fish in the tank. We removed one male but the other continued the attacks until we finally removed him compeltly.

interesting. one of the more aggressive fish in my tank is a female (blue/purple) kenyi. i didn't know it was a female until you just told me. the fish i referred to in my original post (that i had to return with 1 fin and 1/2 a tail) was a male (yellow) kenyi. the second i put him in the tank the famale one attacked him. they were "really" fighting too. they locked jaws and were shaking. i kept breaking them up with my net, but the female would go find him and attack him again. within a few hrs. she had practically killed him.

I'm not familiar with the crabro but they are also on the aggressive side (as far as Africans go).

funny you say that. the other very aggressive one is a crabro. here is a pic. she is about 3" long.

Caeruleus (AKA Yellow Lab) is one of the most docile Mbuna you will find. They are considered Peaceful as far as Africans go. That doesn't mean house them with peaceful community, just other peaceful Africans. Are they usually picked on? If you add fish, increase this number. Theya re best in groupings.

you're right again. the one i have very peaceful. he is the smallest fish in the tank, but none of the others ever bother him.

I do not have any experience with the trewavasae. Are you sure on this breed? Does the mouth have the slight overhang or is it more defined like the lab?

no. i am far from sure. i will look again. the fish that i thought was this species is actually pretty laid-back though and not a problem. he/she fights back when provoked, but doesn't chase or nip at any of the others.

The Auratus could also be the culprit. VERY mean African. One of the most aggressive. With the combination Kenyi and Auratus, that's just asking for trouble. We had a pair of Auratus and had to return them within 2 weeks. THe male terrorized the tank to no end. The female was calmer but once we removed the male, she began harassing the others.

yep. i had already decided to take this one out. it is indeed very mean. i thought it was a female. it had alot of yellow on it at first, but now has turned much, much darker and looks like the pics of males that i have seen. i do not like this fish at all.

I keep my temp around 76. Try reducing slightly and see if the attitude improves. If not, you may want to reconsider the Auratus and Kenyi. Two of the most aggressive African Mbuna's together in one tank, I'm not suprised there is aggression issues.

i will start slowly lowering the temp tonight and see if it makes a difference. also, i have been really having a hard time with water chemistry. getting my buffering technique/schedule down has proven very challenging. my water is very soft and only has a ph of about 6.4 out of the tap. this may be a stupid question, but could my water parameters being poor and fluctuating, as i try to figure all of this out, effect their attitude. i know it's bad for their health, but could it keep them aggitated as well???

Do you have plenty of rockwork with hidey holes?

i think soo. i have a few big plants too. here is a pic of the tank. actually, the fish seem to like hanging-out in, and around the plants more than they do the rocks. also, you can see the shiny silver fish with the stripes that i couldn't ID pretty good in this pic too.

thanks again

 

[Fishyfanatic]

With the water chemistry issues, add some Texas Holy Rock or Limestone to the tank. It will gradually increase the hardness and pH of the water. You can also add a bag of crushed coral to the filter if you don't want the added rocks in the tank. The coral and rocks are natural pH boosters that do it gradually so it will be safe for the fish.

Tank looks great! You may want to add some more rock to the tank to highten the structure, giving more hidey spots. Use silicone to adhead the rocks so they do not shift. You may have noticed that Africans LOVE to aquascape a tank to their liking. Moving substrate and uprooting plants. I can do a water change on our 150 and replant all the fake plants and level off the substrate. The next morning I will turn on the lights and there will always be at least one plant floating and at least one spot where they had dug through the sand all the way to the egg crate.

Have you witnessed the Cichlid Shake yet?

 

[klc9100]

i think i have seen the "shake". it looks kinda like they are having a seizure. why do they do that???

i could tell right away that the plant uprooting was going to be a problem, so i took the little plastic bases off of mine and siliconed them to the back of a few of my rocks. atleast i figured out how to solve one of my problems on my own. lol.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Yes, they look like they are being electrocuted or having a seizure. That is a mating ritual. The female and male swim in a circle. The female shaking to release the eggs, the male shaking to fertilize. Then the female goes back around again and picks the eggs up in her mouth. Don't worry, she's not eating them, just holding on to them until they hatch. Sometimes fish will do it on their own without a partner. And it doesn't always result in dropping eggs. Typically this occurs over a flat rock or possibly sand. Usually rocks though.

lol Good problem solving on the plants! I never thought about that.