All advice so gratefully received!

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

Hi everyone!

I set up my 30L tank 3 weeks ago and have 8 male guppies, who for the most part all get on. I am still getting used to guppy behaviour but I am obsessed with checking on them and have had a few concerns, and followed advice from the aquatics shop I got them from

1) One guppy was being chased/bullied and this stopped for a while but then started again today. I have added some big leafy plants to give him somehwere to hide/stop constant line of sight but I am thinking I maybe need to invest in a much larger tank so they have more space and not be territorial? I don't want to lose any of my little guys and hate the idea of him frightened and bullied!

2) I today added Thera-P that they said would relax them and my tank is still new, so hoping that helps too. I also added Microbe-Lift Bio CO2 for the plants and the water is now brown!!! Will this go away on its own and the fish are ok?? They said they would be...

3) One little guppy was looking very sorry for himself and when I checked the parameters using a proper testing kit the nitrites were so bad! I have done weekly partial water changes as advised but perhaps I need to do extra ones? Small and often?

Thank you so much for all advice, and happy to be part of the forums

 

[Aiken Drum]

Im assuming 30L means you have a 30 litre tank, and not a 30 gallon long tank.

Thats not big enough to keep guppies in. 8 guppies in that small a tank will be stressing them out, and the stress could manifest in a variety of ways. They could pick on each other because there isnt enough space to keep out of each others way. Stress leads to poor immune systems and they will get sick easier and be less likely to recover.

Nitrite in a tank is a clear sign you arent cycled, and this will be causing issues with internal organs. You need to cycle the tank, and given you have too many fish, in too small a tank this will be difficult.

What are your water parameters? Preferably taken before a water change.

What do you understand about the nitrogen cycle? Do you know how to cycle a tank?

Liquid CO2 additives are poisonous to fish. Its gluteraldhyde, which is normally used to sterilse medical equipment. In aquariums it acts as a mild algaecide, and provides zero CO2. You have to be careful not to overdose, its a fine line between no real harm, and killing everything. Due to the negligible benefits, is it really worthwhile dosing this given the risk? These CO2 products should be removed from the aquarium hobby IMO.

Ive read the blurb on the Thera P stuff and it sounds nonsense.

In short you need to provide a tank suitable for your fish, or return the guppies and get a fish suitable for your tank size.

You need to cycle the tank.

Stop adding unnecessary chemicals to the water.

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

I have to say I think the way you have replied comes across as a little hostile - I don't know whether you meant it to be?

I do appreciate any advice and will of course do my best, as I am doing and I have literally followed the advice of the people at the shop.

Now I'm really not sure what to do tbh.

I am very new to this and have been reading up as much as I can but I am getting conflicting advice everywhere. I waited 2 weeks before adding my fish to allow the tank to cycle, and I am into my 4th week now.

I have just read on another website that it does suggest not using any added beneficial bacteria I honestly thought I was doing the best for them here.

Should I do another partial water change to help clear the liquid CO2? It says it is all biological and not harmful to fish but I am worried now...

Thank you for replying, I want to get this right, I really do. And I am going to invest in a much larger tank asap, but this will obviously need time to cycle then.

 

[Aiken Drum]

I dont mean to be hostile, just factual.

You cant cycle a tank in 2 weeks, it typically takes a couple of months and there is a process of things you need to follow. Running a tank for a couple of weeks, or a couple of months or years wont cycle a tank.

Test daily, if ammonia + nitrite combined is above 0.5ppm then change water sufficient to bring water parameters below that target. Thats going to be very difficult in a heavily overstocked tank and may take multiple water changes daily until your cycle establishes which might take a couple of months. Longer term you need a bigger tank than you have to keep 8 guppies. Id look at 60 litres for 8 guppies, and 40 litres if you wanted to reduce down to 6 guppies. A 60 litre would enable you keep some different fish alongside your guppies.

Advice from fish stores is invariably poor. Based on the products you bought im going to take a guess you went to a maidenhead aquatics branch. Fish store employees often know no more than you do about keeping fish. Even when they do know more, their job is to sell you stuff. They did their job. They sold a tank unsuitable for the fish you want to keep. They sold you fish. They sold you unnecessary products to fix problems that wouldn't happen if they advised you properly to start with, and now they might get to sell you a bigger aquarium, with a filter, heater, light etc.

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

Thank you, so much - and you're exactly right about the branch.

I will do exactly as you've advised, I will get a 60 litre tank for them as I really don't want to harm them or have them harm each other If I were to get the new tank in the next few days, is there a minimum time to wait before I can move them? Or will that depend on the levels I take?

I wish I had been advised to get a bigger tank from the start now, as I've done these guys a disservice.

 

[Aiken Drum]

You will need to cycle the new tank.

Your choices are in order of my preference.

1. Return all but 2 of the guppies to the store, get your 60 litre tank, move the 2 fish to the bigger tank and do a fish in cycle properly on the bigger tank, and gradually stock the bigger tank in a safe manner.

2. Move all the fish to the bigger tank and do a fish in cycle. This will be more hazardous to the fishes health than starting the cycle with 2 fish because the water quality will deteriorate quicker.

3. Keep the fish in the smaller, uncycled tank. Do a fishless cycle on the bigger tank until its ready for the fish. This could take a couple of months. Meanwhile do a fish in cycle in the smaller tank so the water quality doesnt deteriorate too much while you are waiting for the new tank cycle. A fish in cycle will be safer in the larger tank (option 2) though because there is more volume of water.

Ill post something on the differences between a fish in and fishless cycle, so you understand the pros and cons of both methods. I will post a thorough method on how to do a fish in cycle. Let me know if you decide on option 3, and ill also post a method of doing a fishless cycle.

I would strongly advise option 1 if you are able and willing to return fish to the store. Option 2 if you cant/ wont return fish. Option 3 is similar to option 2, but in a lower volume of water will be more hazardous.

You might have got away with 3 or 4 guppies in 30 litres, but they really need 40 litres minimum, and 60 litres for the number of fish you bought.

 

[Aiken Drum]

The nitrogen cycle is the natural processes that go on in your tank that convert ammonia into less harmful substances.

Ammonia gets into your tank through various pathways. Fish waste, decaying uneaten food, and dead, decaying plants are common ammonia sources in an aquarium. Its also possible your tap water is an ammonia source. Chloramine is a common water treatment and when treated with most water conditioners the bond in the chloramine breaks and releases ammonia into the water.

Ammonia can be toxic to fish, depending on how much there is, and what the pH and temperature of your tank water is.

The first stage of the nitrogen cycle is the removal of ammonia. If you have real plants in your tank some of this ammonia will be absorbed as part of their natural growth. Generally though ammonia is consumed by denitrifying bacteria that lives mostly on your filter media. These bacteria consume the ammonia and produce nitrite. Unfortunately nitrite is pretty much as toxic to fish as ammonia.

The second stage of the nitrogen cycle is the removal of nitrite. A different denitrifying bacteria will consume the nitrite and produce nitrate. Nitrate is much less harmful than ammonia and nitrite, and for most aquariums the nitrogen cycle ends there. Excess nitrate is removed through your regular water changes.

A further stage of the nitrogen cycle can also happen, but its difficult to remove all the nitrate from a typical freshwater aquarium. Plants will absorb some nitrate in a similar manner to how it absorbs ammonia to grow. There are also nitrifying bacteria that consumes nitrate and gives off nitrogen gas which will simply offgas from your aquarium. This nitrifying bacteria is difficult to grow in freshwater aquarium.

“Cycling” a tank is the process you go through to grow denitrifying bacteria in your aquarium to consume ammonia and nitrite. You are said to be “cycled” when you have enough bacteria to consume all the ammonia and nitrite that your tank produces and turns all of it into nitrate. If you test the water of a cycled tank you should see 0 ammonia and nitrite and some nitrate.

 

[Aiken Drum]

To cycle a tank you need to grow denitrifying bacteria to consume ammonia and nitrite that your tank produces. The bacteria needs an ammonia source to grow colonies sufficient in size to consume all the ammonia and resultant nitrite and turn it into nitrate which typically you remove through your regular water changes.

Two commonly used methods to cycle a tank are called a “fish in” cycle and a “fishless” cycle.

A fish in cycle uses fish waste as an ammonia source and regular water changes are undertaken to ensure that water parameters are maintained at relatively non toxic levels. This has been the go to method to cycle a tank for many years, and it commonly is the way new fish keepers cycle a tank when they have bought fish with no knowledge that a tank needs cycling and how to go about it.

Pros.

• You get to keep “some” fish pretty much on day 1 of setting up your tank.
• More consistently gets you through your cycle.
• Only real choice if you already have fish.
• If done simply, eg stock lightly, add fish slowly, you can fishless cycle safely without testing. Although testing your water while cycling is still a good idea.

Cons.

• Lots of water changes, especially if you are doing a fish in cycle with a fully stocked tank.
• Although you should be doing plenty of water changes to maintain relatively safe water, your fish will be living in waste which isn’t ideal.
• Can take a long time (several months) to go from an empty tank to fully stocked if done safely.

A fishless cycle uses an ammonia source to replicate the fish waste that a tank of fish would produce. This ammonia source can be pure ammonia, an aquarium specific ammonium chloride product like Dr Tims Ammonium Chloride, a cocktail shrimp or fish food.

Pros.

• You cycle the tank before adding fish, therefore they shouldn’t be exposed to their own waste.
• No need for regular water changes while your tank cycles.
• Can be quicker to go from an empty tank to fully stocked.

Cons.

• Needs patience, you will be looking at an empty tank for several weeks.
• More technical approach requiring dosing ammonia and will need to be done alongside regular testing.
• Less consistently successful than fish in cycles, especially with new fish keepers who don’t understand the process and expect it to run to a timetable.

 

[Aiken Drum]

To cycle a tank you need to grow denitrifying bacteria to consume ammonia and nitrite that your tank produces. The bacteria needs an ammonia source to grow colonies sufficient in size to consume all the ammonia and resultant nitrite and turn it into nitrate which typically you remove through your regular water changes.

A fish in cycle uses fish waste as an ammonia source and regular water changes are undertaken to ensure that water parameters are maintained at relatively non toxic levels.

Set up your tank. Make sure everything is running smoothly. Make sure you have used a water conditioner product with any tap water you have put in your tank. Seachem Prime is a water conditioner that will also detoxify some ammonia for a day or two, so is a good choice for a water conditioner while cycling a tank with fish.

You should have a test kit. Preferably a liquid test kit. It should test for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

In ideal circumstances you should be starting a fishless cycle with a low bioload (number of fish). 1 small fish per 10 gallons/40 litres is a good number of fish, but this can be tweaked a little for fish that are social and don’t do well on their own. Ideally a hardy type of fish. You may have fully stocked (or overstocked) your tank before you knew about cycling. In these circumstances, if its not possible to return fish, you will have to make the best of it.

If you haven’t already done so, add your fish. Acclimate them to the water in your tank before doing so.

Feed lightly to start with. Daily as much as is eaten in 2 minutes, or as much as is eaten in 3 minutes every 2 days. You can increase to full feedings if you are confident your parameters aren’t getting too elevated too quickly and water changes don’t become a daily thing.

Start to regularly test the water for ammonia and nitrite. At least daily. Depending on your bioload you could start to see ammonia quite quickly. Nitrite will likely take a little longer to appear.

Your target should be to keep ammonia + nitrite combined no higher than 0.5ppm by changing water whenever your water parameters exceed this target. 0.5ppm combined is a level of waste that is sufficient for your cycle to establish but relatively safe for your fish.

If you see 0.5ppm ammonia and 0.0ppm nitrite (0.5ppm combined) then leave things be. If you see 0.5ppm ammonia and 0.25ppm nitrite (0.75ppm combined) then change 1/3 of the water. If you see 0.25ppm ammonia and 0.75ppm nitrite (1.0ppm combined) then change 1/2 the water. If water parameters get worse than these levels it may require multiple daily 50% water changes to maintain safe water conditions. This is more likely to happen with a fully stocked tank.

Remember to add water conditioner whenever you put tap water in the tank.

Over time the frequency of water changes and amount you need to change to maintain your ammonia + nitrite combined target will reduce. You can also start testing for nitrate and should see this rising. If you are finding the ammonia and nitrite in your tests are consistently low, and you aren’t already fully stocked, you can add a few more fish. It may take a few weeks to get to this point.

Once you add a few more fish, continue to regularly test the water and continue to change water if you exceed the 0.5ppm combined ammonia + nitrite target. With added bioload the frequency of water changes and amount you need to change may increase again until your cycle has caught up. Again once you are consistently seeing low ammonia and nitrite you can add some more fish. Rinse and repeat with testing, water changes, and adding fish when safe to do so until you are fully stocked.

You can then cut back on water changes to control nitrate only. Typically you want to keep nitrate no higher than 40ppm, but I would recommend changing some water every 2 weeks even if your water test says you don’t need to.

A fish in cycle from an empty tank to fully stocked can take several months.

A good way to speed up this process would be to put a small amount of filter media from an established filter into your filter, or get a sponge from an established filter and squeeze it into your tank water. Perhaps you have a friend who keeps fish who could let you have some? This will seed your filter with the bacteria you are trying to grow and speed up the process.

Another option is bottled bacteria like Dr Tims One + Only or Tetra Safestart. These products wont instantly cycle a tank as they claim but in a similar manner to adding established filter media they can seed your filter with the bacteria you are trying to grow to establish your cycle. These products are hit and miss as to whether they work at all, but are an option if established filter media isnt obtainable and may speed up the process from several months to several weeks.

 

[Aiken Drum]

I have just read on another website that it does suggest not using any added beneficial bacteria I honestly thought I was doing the best for them here.

Should I do another partial water change to help clear the liquid CO2? It says it is all biological and not harmful to fish but I am worried now...

Beneficial bacteria products can help, and some products are better than others. They mostly do nothing useful though. They wont hurt anything to try.

The microbelift therap product isn't a beneficial bacteria product if thats what you mean. It contains a different bacteria to the ones responsible for your cycle. The bacteria in therap eats detritus, and simply isnt needed if you keep up with proper aquarium maintenance.

You reported your nitrite is high, so you need to change water anyway. This will reduce the CO2 booster product, just dont add anymore.

The only product you need to add into your aquarium is water conditioner to remove chlorine/ chloramine from your tap water. If you have live plants they will probably benefit from a liquid fertiliser. Pretty much every other aquarium product that goes in the water isnt needed, or are so specific in what they do they arent needed in most aquariums. They fix problems that dont exist, they dont do what they claim, or aren't needed if you do your proper water maintenance. In some cases they are downright hazardous (CO2 boosters). Their only purpose is to remove money from your pocket and put it in the pockets of aquarium product manufacturers.

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

Thank you so much, that is some amazing advice!!

I don't think I have the option of returning the fish, but I can ask. If they won't I will go with Option 2 as you suggest.

I am going to order the bigger tank now, so if you would be kind enough to explain the best way to do this for the fish I would be very, very grateful.

I have a liquid test kit and I am now checking the levels daily before any water changes, and I won't add any more liquid CO2 or anything of the sort.

Thank you again, you have been amazing!!!!

 

[Aiken Drum]

Post #9 explains the fish in cycle process. Set up the new tank, run it 24 hours to ensure everything works correctly, no leaks etc. Transfer the fish over, then follow post #9.

I would change at least 50% of the water every day in the current tank until you move them over. Before moving them, do a couple of 50% water changes in the old tank then move them. This will ensure the water in the old tank and new tank are pretty much the same before you move them and avoid any acclimating shock to the fishes system.

Ill also add that Maidenhead aquatics are extremely expensive for livestock. Like 2 or 3 times the price i can pay elsewhere. For fish like guppies there is nothing wrong with pets at home. If pets at home offer the same fish at a cheaper price then no reason not to shop there. Their range is limited but their livestock is good quality and healthy and usually cheaper than somewhere like maidenhead charge. Nothing wrong with maidenhead aquatics except the livestock price BTW. Im not sure on their return policy. Advise wise maidenhead are a better bet than pets at home, it really depends on the individual shop assistant, but they shouldn't have sold you the fish without checking you had a suitable tank and knew how to look after them.

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

Thank you
I am going to get the tank tomorrow or Tuesday, so if it's ok I will reply with how everything is looking.

Thank you again for your great advice today

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

Post #9 explains the fish in cycle process. Set up the new tank, run it 24 hours to ensure everything works correctly, no leaks etc. Transfer the fish over, then follow post #9.

I would change at least 50% of the water every day in the current tank until you move them over. Before moving them, do a couple of 50% water changes in the old tank then move them. This will ensure the water in the old tank and new tank are pretty much the same before you move them and avoid any acclimating shock to the fishes system.

Ill also add that Maidenhead aquatics are extremely expensive for livestock. Like 2 or 3 times the price i can pay elsewhere. For fish like guppies there is nothing wrong with pets at home. If pets at home offer the same fish at a cheaper price then no reason not to shop there. Their range is limited but their livestock is good quality and healthy and usually cheaper than somewhere like maidenhead charge. Nothing wrong with maidenhead aquatics except the livestock price BTW. Im not sure on their return policy. Advise wise maidenhead are a better bet than pets at home, it really depends on the individual shop assistant, but they shouldn't have sold you the fish without checking you had a suitable tank and knew how to look after them.

New 60 litre tank is here and ready to be filled with water

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

Also, sorry to be a pain, but what food would you suggest is best?
I got those tablet type things as that is what they were feeding them at the store, but if they are useless I want to get them something decent.
Thank you

 

[Aiken Drum]

I feed my guppies hikari micro pellets mainly, occasionally they get some tetramin flake, occasionally tetrapro colour multi-crisp. Give them some variety. No idea if what you are feeding is rubbish, can you give some more detail on what it actually is?

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

Thank you!

Novofect veggie tablets

 

[Aiken Drum]

No. That is food for vegetable eating fish. They would be good as part of a more varied diet, but a guppies natural diet includes insects, insect lavae, invertebrates, plants and algae, so a vegetable only diet isnt going to be the best diet for them. Id look for a good quality freshwater fish flake as a staple, with those vege pellets as an occasional feed to provide some variety. The tetramin flake will be good, you can get it from pets at home and maidenhead aquatics. I think tetra do a flake specifically for guppies if you can find them.

Did maidenhead recommend the veggie tablets for your guppies?

Not sure how you are feeding those. They look too big for a guppy to eat. Are you breaking them up into small pieces so the guppies can eat them?

 

[GuPpYnEwBiE82]

No. That is food for vegetable eating fish. They would be good as part of a more varied diet, but a guppies natural diet includes insects, insect lavae, invertebrates, plants and algae, so a vegetable only diet isnt going to be the best diet for them. Id look for a good quality freshwater fish flake as a staple, with those vege pellets as an occasional feed to provide some variety. The tetramin flake will be good, you can get it from pets at home and maidenhead aquatics. I think tetra do a flake specifically for guppies if you can find them.

Did maidenhead recommend the veggie tablets for your guppies?

Not sure how you are feeding those. They look too big for a guppy to eat. Are you breaking them up into small pieces so the guppies can eat them?

Thank you - and yes, they showed me what they are feeding them in the store. You stick the tablet to the glass and they bite bits off them, and they disperse and break off into little pieces.

All the advice, including from yourself has been to feed only what they can eat in those few mins and that tablet certainly doesn't break down/get eaten in that time. So I have to remove excess almost every day, likely because it is not their natural diet and as you mention there is no variety for them.

I will get the flakes you have mentioned

 

[Aiken Drum]

I think 1 pellet is going to be too much for a few guppies to eat in 1 go. I like those pellets that can stick to the glass because its fun to watch the fish pick at them over an hour or so, but i use them in bigger tanks with upto 100 fish, and 3 pellets gets eaten. I wouldnt use a stick on the glass pellet in my small guppy tank because its too much food. A fishes stomach is the size of its eye to give you an idea of how much food they csn eat in 1 sitting. Is a pellet bigger than 8 guppy eyes?

Maybe stick one on the side of the tank twice a week and remove it after 10 or 15 minutes so there isnt excess food left lying on the bottom.

I dont give my guppies any specialised vegetable food because they pick at algae all through the day until they get fed in the evening. I figure they get enough vegetable in their diet from that.