Ammonia false positives?

[mikephelps79]

I apologize if this has been discussed but I didn't fine info when I searched. I have a 30 gal community tank with skirt tetras, cories and platies that has been up for a little over 2 years. The cories and platies have done well but my live bearers have a short lifespan...4-5 months. I really don't want to lose the live bearers so am digging deeper into causes. One thing I started looking at is ammonia level. I know it should be 0 but it has never tested there. I use well water that has gone through a softener conditioned with Prime or NovAqua for water changes. Last night I tested water from my aqarium, my tap and a sample from ahead of the softener using an API test kit. All samples tested pale green instead of yellow. Thinking my test kit may be messed up I checked a sample from bottled water. It tested Yellow.. Is there anything else that would cause a positive reading? My tank seems to be cycling properly but that ammonia reading never goes away or changes.

 

[skrapeNKA]

If you're testing right after the water change that could be the problem; I was having the same issues and did a little poking around the internets. SeaChem Prime remains active in your system for 24 hours (I think?) and can give you results for ammonia (in the form of the harmless ammonIUM). I started drawing water for my tests just before I do my water changes as a result and haven't had any more ammonia readings!

It's also a good idea to take water samples before adding Prime if you have to bring them to refund a fish, but trying to explain how Prime works to a teenager who couldn't care less but is in charge of my credit is a different story

 

[mikephelps79]

No....I always test before a water change. The ammonia indication seems to be there no matter when or what 'version' of water from my well. It just seems like there is something else in the water that the API tester mistakes for ammonia. If I could get that information....maybe I could figure out how to remove it or cross it off my list of possible things that are messing with my live bearers. One suggestion was to find another water source but I'm hoping that is not the solution. It kind of makes my little hobby become a bigger chore.

 

[Andy Sager]

The next question is what is the pH of your water in the tank followed by are you using any kind of fertilizer for live plants?

 

[mikephelps79]

Ph runs between 7.8 and 8.0 depending on the day. I have no live plants....only plastic. I read somewhere that some fertilizers would test like ammonia. That might explain why whatever is showing in the text doesn't cycle and disappear.

 

[Andy Sager]

Ph runs between 7.8 and 8.0 depending on the day. I have no live plants....only plastic. I read somewhere that some fertilizers would test like ammonia. That might explain why whatever is showing in the text doesn't cycle and disappear.

Okay, but if you have no live plants, are you using some kind of fertilizer? Yes , many fertilizers I understand, use ammonium within them as plants don't absorb ammonia but ammonium and the API test kit does not differentiate between ammonia and ammonium so you would get a reading.

As for PRIME, it stays effective for 48 hours so I would retest the water after 48 hours to see if you still have an ammonia reading. If you do, then there is something more going on.
As for the livebearers having such a short life, they usually do better in slightly harder water so that may be why they don't last so long in your softened water? Just a guess.

 

[Andy Sager]

I had another thought about why you have ammonia in your well water: is it possible you are getting some runoff from a septic system ( yours or a neighbor's) ? That too could explain why you are getting the ammonia from the source water.

 

[mikephelps79]

.



As for PRIME, it stays effective for 48 hours so I would retest the water after 48 hours to see if you still have an ammonia reading. If you do, then there is something more going on.

As for the livebearers having such a short life, they usually do better in slightly harder water so that may be why they don't laso long in your softened water? Just a guess.

Is ammonium bad for fish? I don't use any fertilizer n
But no way to tell about others who would feed into the area of my well.

As far as soft water....just had a conversation about that at my lfs. I've never had them test my water but plan to tomorrow. He indicated that they can test hardness more accurately than my test strips.

 

[mikephelps79]

I had another thought about why you have ammonia in your well water: is it possible you are getting some runoff from a septic system ( yours or a neighbor's) ? That too could explain why you are getting the ammonia from the source water.

Always a possibility. I'm still not understanding why it won't cycle through once in the tank if it is truely ammonia. My nitrites never show above 0 but nitrates go up regularly. That means my bacteria is doing its job...right?

 

[Andy Sager]

Is ammonium bad for fish? I don't use any fertilizer n
But no way to tell about others who would feed into the area of my well.

As far as soft water....just had a conversation about that at my lfs. I've never had them test my water but plan to tomorrow. He indicated that they can test hardness more accurately than my test strips.

No, ammonium is not nearly as toxic to fish which is how products like PRIME or lowering the PH below 7.0 make the water non toxic. They are actually converting ammonia into ammonium chemically.

Always a possibility. I'm still not understanding why it won't cycle through once in the tank if it is truely ammonia. My nitrites never show above 0 but nitrates go up regularly. That means my bacteria is doing its job...right?

If you are using strips to do your tests, that may be your problem. Test strips are far less reliable than liquid tests so you might want to have them check your ammonia from your tap as well as your tank to confirm it's presence.
You also need to consider that the bacteria that converts ammonia into nitrites has a different "best water parameter" than the bacteria that converts nitrites to nitrates and in your case, you may have a strong 2nd half bacteria bed than a front end bed which is why you are not seeing the nitrites but seeing the ammonia and nitrates. It just takes longer for the front end bacteria to consume what you have. But now, this is all dependent on whether you really have enough to consider a problem at all. It may be that the slightest presence of ammonia is triggering your strip test to show it's lowest amount which is not really an accurate amount and since the bottled water has no ammonia in it, nothing was triggered. Have your LFS do the whole battery of tests to compare and then invest in a liquid test kit. API's master kit is a good one.

Keep us posted.

 

[mikephelps79]

I only use strips for hardness. I use an API test kit for
Everything else. I feel very confident about having an ammonia reading from well ahead of softener, well water out of tap and sample from tank. All show light green. If I test bottled water it shows bright yellow.

 

[Andy Sager]

I only use strips for hardness. I use an API test kit for
Everything else. I feel very confident about having an ammonia reading from well ahead of softener, well water out of tap and sample from tank. All show light green. If I test bottled water it shows bright yellow.

Hmm, then I go back to my original possibility that your bacteria bed is out of sync but not bad enough to effect the fish. Check out this article and see if anything pops out at you. Nitrifying Bacteria Facts
You might have a dissolved oxygen issue and that can effect the front end of your biological filter as I described. Maybe? See if your LFS can also test for dissolved O2.

 

[mikephelps79]

Hmm, then I go back to my original possibility that your bacteria bed is out of sync but not bad enough to effect the fish. Check out this article and see if anything pops out at you. Nitrifying Bacteria Facts
You might have a dissolved oxygen issue and that can effect the front end of your biological filter as I described. Maybe? See if your LFS can also test for dissolved O2.

Thanks Andy. That was a good article. Hopefully I can slip away from work for a little while today and visit the lfs.

 

[mikephelps79]

Well....my trip to the lfs has confused me more. He tested and while not as pronounced....saw similar ammonia positive. He didn't have a definite answer but believes something in my well is messing with the test. When he checked hardness his test showed it off the chart hard. My strip shows very soft which makes sense to me since all water that has been put in the tank has been through my softener. I'm trying to locate a liquid hardness tester for myself. Hopefully won't have to order. I know there Is gh and kh. Which should I be worrying about? Or both?

The other thing that he saw and didn't like was my ph of 7.8. He thinks I need to get that down and suggested I start mixing ro water with my well water.

 

[skrapeNKA]

GH is considered general hardness (as it sounds, basically how 'hard' your water is) and KH is carbonate Hardness (which is a measure of how resistant your water is to pH swings). If you're only getting one, I'd probably get the GH and keep a close eye on your pH for awhile.

As for adjusting your pH, I wouldn't worry about it; especially since your fish have been fine for 2 years! My tank runs about 8.3 on average, and my cories and RCS couldn't care less.

 

[Andy Sager]

API makes a GH / KH combo test kit ( 2 separate testers in one box) and it's cheap enough that I wouldn't look for them individually. I'm with Scrape on not adjusting your PH continuously. That can have more effect on the fish than it being as high as it is. Most FL shops don't really adjust their water and in S. FL, where I was, the PH is very high because the water is extremely hard down there and only if we were getting wild S.A. fish would we alter the water.

What it sounds like is that your well is not as clean as you think it is. Why, is not clear but considering the area you live near, I would suspect it is coming from North of you and filtering down the aquafer. Just to be curious, think about having some of your soil tested for PH as well. I'm almost thinking that you are getting massive runoff from the farms or even the Cape effecting you. Acidic soil would leave a real good hint that I am correct.

Something else you can do with your well water prior to going through the softener is to get a zeolite filter ( Culligan used to rent them) and that should remove the ammonia from the water then it goes through the softener and then to the tank. That way, you should be getting clean soft water to use for your tanks ( and even yourself. Don't think you really want to be drinking ammonia. )

 

[mikephelps79]

Good idea about the filter. I paid a visit to another lfs and besides getting the test kit got some more info that I feel is real. Based on that information...I've pretty well decided to quit messing with live bearers until such time as I set up another tank with better water that I have to buy. He showed me some alternative fish with great color that should get along well with both my water and other fish. I have 4 platies left and will do all I can to keep them alive but think I may be fighting a loosing battle. I got back late so haven't tested with api gh/kh kit. Plan to do that today.

 

[mikephelps79]

I just tested gh and kh. It came out in line with what I expected. Gh is very low....below 17.9 ppm. Kh is 143.2 ppm. When I checked the well water ahead of the softener....it went off the scale towards hard. That helps explain why tetras do well since I'm told they are ok with softer water. Even for them I could make the water harder if I could come up with a way to do that. One other time I started down this path and tried mixing some drinking water. It instantly went way hard and it scared me. I haven't messed with it since.

 

[skrapeNKA]

SeaChem makes a product called Equilibrium which is designed to bring R/O water to reasonable GH/KH levels; could be worth a couple bucks to see how it plays with your softened water.

 

[mikephelps79]

Thanks. I'll check that out