Another Ick question...

[fishman]

Update...So far I have not seen any other spots on any of the fish. All are acting ok and eating well. It will be a week this Tues or Wed. I have follow up questions.
1) Since ick is a parasite, what happens if I do not see any symptons again for say a month, 2 months, etc? I went for 2 years after seeing no signs when I previously had ick and did not have it until the other day? I would assume after a period of time the parasite would die if it cant find a host that gives into it?
2) I have been using Garlic like crazy. I even add it to my tank which is what I did 2 years ago when I noticed ick...I assume this is ok to do and cant hurt anything? I assume some % is being pulled out by the skimmer?

 

[steve-s]

Update...So far I have not seen any other spots on any of the fish. All are acting ok and eating well. It will be a week this Tues or Wed.

1) Since ick is a parasite, what happens if I do not see any symptons again for say a month, 2 months, etc? I went for 2 years after seeing no signs when I previously had ick and did not have it until the other day? I would assume after a period of time the parasite would die if it cant find a host that gives into it?

After that time frame and no host, C. irritans will have died off. It cannot sustain itself without a fish host. When treating fish, even after all signs have cleared up, you must still maintain the full treatment period. Be sure the fish remain in the QT for at least 2 weeks after the completion of treatment.

2) I have been using Garlic like crazy. I even add it to my tank which is what I did 2 years ago when I noticed ick...I assume this is ok to do and cant hurt anything? I assume some % is being pulled out by the skimmer?

The only caution would be garlic like any organic source is a form of nutrient that can affect water quality. There's no real benefit to using it more than twice a week really. It's not a cure and it cannot actually kill parasites directly. It helps the fish repell infestations and improves the immune response but has no direct bearing on it's life cycle.

Cheers
Steve

 

[fishman]

Steve
Are you saying I should wait and see? Before this happened I was about to add fish to the QT tank and then add them to the main. I have had no problems in 2 years...now this little scare.
How long should I wait to think that this little scare is over?
Also to clarify, yes once I decide to treat if needed, then I will treat the amt of time for Cupramine, then an additional 2-4 weeks at least.
On adding the garlic, I dont think Im adding enough to effect the water quality...I add 3-5 drops a day and then to the food. I feed every other day. I may do a water change in the next day or so. Its a 100 gallon with a 40 gallon sump/fuge. I may do a 15-25 gallon water change or do you think I should leave this alone for now and not stress the fish??

 

[steve-s]

Are you saying I should wait and see? Before this happened I was about to add fish to the QT tank and then add them to the main. I have had no problems in 2 years...now this little scare.
How long should I wait to think that this little scare is over?

I'm not sure I understood the question then in the first response. I don't know what you mean by "wait and see".

If by that you meant the fish had signs of the parasite, disappeared and did not return; there are three possibilities....

1.. The fish was misdiagnosed and did not have C. irritans

2.. The fish has developed a limited aquired immunity and is fending off the infestation. Usually quite short lived and easily triggered to a full blown infection later on.

3... The Tomont stage

It has been 4 days since the "spots" where first noticed so you are not out of the woods so to speak. The stage in which the parasite encysts and cell divides can last up to a month. So I would hold off on any new additions at the very least until your sure.

Also to clarify, yes once I decide to treat if needed, then I will treat the amt of time for Cupramine, then an additional 2-4 weeks at least.
On adding the garlic, I dont think Im adding enough to effect the water quality...I add 3-5 drops a day and then to the food. I feed every other day. I may do a water change in the next day or so. Its a 100 gallon with a 40 gallon sump/fuge. I may do a 15-25 gallon water change or do you think I should leave this alone for now and not stress the fish??

Do your normal routine unless the fish gives you signs otherwise. Regals are notoriously skiddish and very nervous fish so base your interaction with the tank on what you've done previosly.

If it's time for a water change then do so. If it stresses the tang so be it. If C. irritans is present it will show up. Better now than later on really.

Cheers
Steve

 

[fishman]

what I mean is do I wait and see if I end up with a true outbreak of ick....look at it from another direction...if it isnt ick, then what could it be? The bumps were white in nature and under the skin....I dont know what else it could be....But if I immediately tear the tank apart when not needed, then I have over reacted...If what I had 2 years ago was ick as well, and I had no signs of it until 2 years later, I would think that me introducing the recent corals the other day is where I got the ick if thats what it is. So my question is, do I wait to see if the tang breaks out in ick as he did when I brought him home from the LFS 9-12 months ago, or treat the whole tank now? (I treated the tang previously and he was ick free before going into the main). My other question was what time frame will pass and no other spots show up that I know all is well? Is it a month, 3 months, 1 year? And your right Im not going to add anything to the main until Im sure the tank is free of ick. I just dont want to overreact when the fish might be able to fight it off himself as happened 2 years ago with my clowns.
Thanks for all the help and I can only home you bear with me.

 

[steve-s]

So my question is, do I wait to see if the tang breaks out in ick as he did when I brought him home from the LFS 9-12 months ago, or treat the whole tank now?

Personally I would wait. As I've said many times before, just because a fish has a spot does not automatically mean a parasite. Wait it out and see if they come back. I would be sure the QT is ready and biofiltration is properly seeded. I would also hold off on new additions, which you've indicated already. If they reappear, don't hesitate.

My other question was what time frame will pass and no other spots show up that I know all is well? Is it a month, 3 months, 1 year?

Hard call. The tang could have developed a sort of immunity from the last bout but the other tank mates will not have had the same opportunity. If present, it will not be just the tang to be watchful of. Aquired immunity is usually short lived though, upto about 6 months unless there is some sort of stress catylist. If the Tomonts have encysted, it will be anywhere from the day the spots disappeared upto 30ish days.

Cheers
Steve

 

[fishman]

Yes I do have a 30 gallon which I just traded a 20 for the other day. I have the cupramine, and a biowheel as well as 3 big spounges that have been in my sump for about 9 months now. I always keep about 20-30 gallons of SW mixed up and ready.
As far as the new additions, I will probably wait 30-60 days. Wouldnt you think this would be plenty of time? Keep in mind that the damsel I have was exposed to ick and was not treated 2 years ago, as well as the clown I have. The regal and dottieback I bought at the same time and were in the QT tank together when the tang came down with ick the first time. So all have been exposed to ick - 2 of them treated for it and the other 2 werent (which was 2 years ago).
I guess my objective is to try and stress them then??
Well I will go back to my normal way of doing things. I really dont want to wait 60 days and then come home to find spots one day.
I guess my concern in not just pulling them out now is I dont really want to expose the tang to copper again....he had deverloped HLLE the first time. (But I think this was due to my going on vacation and the water conditions were bad when I got back. also he didnt have nori to eat while I was gone....he has really recovered well.)
Also how to clowns handle copper?
Thanks

 

[quarryshark]

I guess my concern in not just pulling them out now is I dont really want to expose the tang to copper again....

Then why not use hyposalinity? If done properly it is very effective against ich?

Also how to clowns handle copper?

Cupramine is fine with clowns.

I really dont want to wait 60 days and then come home to find spots one day.

It shouldn't take this long for ich to express itself.

 

[fishman]

I just havent read where to many people have faired very well with the hypo. It appears to me that it works on a 50-50 basis. I do have a refractometer and it seeems easy enough. Plus I like the idea of keeping the bacteria basis too whereas you dont have this with copper. Have you used it before? I guess the issue I see is with water changes...looks like it would get crazy as far as making sure you keep that 1.010 mark...
Plus another issue I have wondered about is if you catch the ick in its beginning stages, then hypo would work. If you dont, the copper works much quicker doesnt it?
Guess I can only hope that if its ick then it shows itself soon. So far no of the other fish have had any signs....we will see..

 

[quarryshark]

I just havent read where to many people have faired very well with the hypo

Thats because they don't do it right. The spg must be measured with a good refractomer and must not get above .009 spg and must be maintained for a 4 week period. Diligence is needed to do it right.
I have used it with success, it really works and is much easier on the fish than medicating them.

.looks like it would get crazy as far as making sure you keep that 1.010 mark...

Just have the change water ready at the needed level, its no harder IMO than dosing change water with copper. You have to maintain a certain level with each treatment, all the same to me.
With hypo, you do need to also buffer the change water, it tends to mess with the PH, especially when you are transitioning the spg level.
Cupramine is a wonderful drug, I used it with a velvet outbreak, I just prefer hypo for ich, if done right its much easier on the animals.

 

[steve-s]

I guess my objective is to try and stress them then??

I know you where most likely venting but be sure you don't do this. Overtly bringing about stress is not healthy for the fish at any time. If there, it will show itself soon enough. QS has given you sound advice.

Cheers
Steve

 

[fishman]

No I was only kidding. However for the past few days I have not gone up to the tank as much as I normally do, I leave the den light on to make sure its not totally dark (as night is the most stressful part of the day for fish)...little things like this. I left the normal moonlight on last night and no other lights on. Woke up this morning and no spots on anyone. Its a week today. Lets say it wasnt ick...what else could little pin head dots under the skin be? Im open to anything,
Thanks

 

[steve-s]

Lets say it wasnt ick...what else could little pin head dots under the skin be?

A small infection, bacterial, fungal, scales on end, sediment, an abrassion or simpley a trick of the eye. To hard to say really and those are just guesses. I understand this is hard enough and not to make matters worse but "eyeballing" illnesses can quite often lead to misdiagnosis. Believe it or not, the only sure way is examination under a microscope 8O

Cheers
Steve

 

[fishman]

Well I do know for sure it was not a trick of th eye. It was a very pronounced raised bump and was white in nature. As the lights stayed on, the bumps went away in about 20-30 minutes. One was very large (little larger than pinhead). Guess time will only tell. I HOPE its not ick for sure. would be a nice break for me for sure! I hope i will know within 30-45 days for sure.

 

[stusclan]

Quarry and Steve - is it possible that since he is describing only one raised bump that was white or off white in color - could it be a different pest? I'm fighting with black spots on my yellow tang - when I placed in qt with my other fish, I soaked all my lr ( only way to catch the damsel was to remove the lr). I found a cirolanid isopod in the bucket I put the rock in. Any chance it is something like this - and just going through the life cycle?

 

[steve-s]

Could be anything at this point. Given the description so far, it's not sounding like C. irritans. 6 days and still no re-occurance.

Cheers
Steve

 

[fishman]

The only thing I cna think of at this point is...I noticed a 4-6 inch bristleworm in my tank for the first time the other night. Now, the regal has a rock that he sleeps inside of each night when the lights go out...since the bumps, he has not slept in that rock...I wonder if it could have been the bristle was in the hole and maybe stung him??
We are on day 7 and no other bumps....Plus yesterday I had a swing of 3-4 degrees in the tank due to weather issues here. And there was a few people at the house last night and was around the tank a lot and the regal was going nuts so I was expecting he was stressed so if it were ick it should have showed itself...again Im waiting 6-8 weeks to make sure this doesnt occur again. Wouldnt you think this would be plenty of time?

 

[steve-s]

again Im waiting 6-8 weeks to make sure this doesnt occur again. Wouldnt you think this would be plenty of time?

Cheers
Steve

 

[fishman]

Thanks for all the help steve and quarry...Aprreciate it! Will keep you posted.

 

[fishman]

UPDATE...Well all have successfully been moved into the QT and are alive this morning. I think my regal is the one that hates it the most....BUT she doesnt have spots on her this morning so at least she is showing no signs of stress...I have the temp at 78-81 and am brining the salinity down from 1.026 last night to 1.022 when I went to bed...Im going to go slow. Which is fine as it will force me to leave the main fallow longer. Im going to bring the salinity down to 1.009 and leave it there for 3-4 weeks...I want to be SURE this devil of a parasite is dead...I assume its ok to leave it there that long? Also isnt this 14-16 PPT on the refracto??