Balanced Aquariums (by request)

[Mumma.of.two]

In my experience (4 tanks) with the silent cycle, it's taken more than "10 plants" to avoid ammonia and nitrite readings. Even with fish that have a small bioload, 4 of them required a very large amount of fast growing stem plants (Egeria densa and najas, along with Hornwort, in addition to the anubias, crypts and apons that were not placed there for the purpose of removing ammonia).

In my most recent tank, in order to avoid slipping into a typical cycle, I currently have 12x 6-10" stems of Egeria densa, 3 large bushes of Hornwort about the size of my two fists together, 3x 12" Rotala rotundifola stems, 5x 4-8" Hydrotriche hottoniiflora stems and some assorted apons, crypts, swords, and java ferns. This is what it presently takes to counter 4x 1.5" fish, 1 large snail, 3 medium snails, and a wealth of small to tiny snails.

This is fairly typical from what I have read of others' experiences with performing a cycle this way. A large bioload often requires the tank to become a jungle of fast growing stem plants to counteract it. And as far as I know, when you do it this way, you always add the plants before the fish.

This is what I found too when I did a silent cycle on my 70g. The tank was 60-70% planted with stem plants just to have 4 small tetras and a juvenile red tail shark.

 

[absolutangel04]

This is what I found too when I did a silent cycle on my 70g. The tank was 60-70% planted with stem plants just to have 4 small tetras and a juvenile red tail shark.

Sorry for my ignorance, but could you please fill me in on what a silent cycle is? I have heard the term used before, but I don't know what it means.

 

[Mumma.of.two]

Sorry for my ignorance, but could you please fill me in on what a silent cycle is? I have heard the term used before, but I don't know what it means.

A silent cycle is where you will heavily plant a tank with fast growing stem plants and use fish. The plants use the ammonia and nitrite so there is little to no spikes.
http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_silent_cycling.php
I don't agree with adding algae eaters first like this info says.

 

[GhillieSniper115]

A self sustaining tank, IMO, would be one you do no maintenance other than top offs, you do not feed, you do not do anything basically. This is clearly not a self sustaining tank.

Why does the tank need to be cycled with fish? What does it matter? Why subject the fish to high ammonia and nitrite levels unnecessarily?

1 fishless cycling is usually for beginners

2 u need to cycle with fish and plants so the nitrogen fixing bacteria can establish themselves

 

[GhillieSniper115]

A pond has natural water runoff and water replacement. You still havnt mentioned what happens to dissolved toxins that build up over time? Water changes are essential not just to reduce nitrates but to provide fresh trace elements and minerals. And also to remove the accumulation of dissolved toxins that don't get used by the plants and are left as water evaporated.

How is it natural to leave lights running 24/7? That doesn't make sense. In real life the lights aren't on 24/7...

It really seems like you've written a post on something that really isn't safe or appropriate .

No lights are on at night until before you go to bed. That's not safe to leave them on 24/7

 

[GhillieSniper115]

Actually, this sounds similar to a planted shrimp tank concept I read in a magazine recently, at least in theory. I think the basic idea is the amonia, nitrite, and nitrates are going into a HEAVILY planted tanks biosphere, ie the plants, which are in effect working as the filter. The BB exists, it's in the rocks and would honestly end up on the stalks of the plants I expect. That's why a thirty gallon tank is populated with eight guppies or other small livebearer. The population density is kept small enough to prevent problems. you just replace water.

When you think about it, compare this concept to a man made large fishing pond, no pumps or filters. There's going to be HUGE numbers of plants, algae, what have you compared to a relatively small population of fish (When you get right down to it, the "Stock" if it's stocked regularly will have mass die offs due to infighting, shock, and fishermen).

In essence this isn't a "Filterless" system. This is a "Natural" system.

I'm not sure I'd ever try this (Though the shrimp bowl... it was a one gallon "Goldfish" bowl, actually... I might).

Exactly

 

[GhillieSniper115]

"2 you should add the plants once the fish are added and after the tank is cycled, add the snails. Amount of fish should be about 6-7, snails 10, and plants doesnt matter as long as its less then 10"

Sorry but discussing a heavily planted tank when it clearly states less than 10 plants?

Also the poster said earlier that they had said to add plants to help the cycle, when they have also clearly stated to add plants once the fish are added and AFTER the tank has cycled.

Again is this thread of any relevance whatsoever if your not going to tell us what we are cycling? A filter sponge or decor or what?

No I said ad plants with fish and the plant I recommend, elodea, adapts and grows according to the bio load of the tank.

 

[GhillieSniper115]

All i think we really need to know on top I the original post is;

Filtration, if none then how do you deal with the water becoming toxic quickly.

Cycling, what do you cycle? You have the fish, substrate and decor, per the list, plants to add after. So what do we cycle, or even how? Do you water change during cycling or not? How do you cycle a tank which is just essentially a box with water in it?

You cycle the tank to build up colonies of bacteria

 

[GhillieSniper115]

In fact (correct me if I'm wrong), but isn't one technique involved in silent cycling actually letting the organics in the certain substrates begin to leech ammonia long before fish are added? That way it allows the beneficial bacteria to get a foot hold and the nitrogen cycle begins (as well as letting the plants flourish) before fish are ever brought into the equation?

After thinking about this a bit more and digging through some articles...I'll stick to and repeat my original statement. Throw a filter on it and call it a planted tank. And I agree that for this idea to even be feasible you'd need a forest of plants in there.

To me, unless this is put together by a true expert of the technique, it simply amounts to a poorly maintained aquarium without a filter. Just because something possibly can be done...doesn't mean it should.

You are right u need alot of plants preferably elodea

 

[Wy Renegade]

1 fishless cycling is usually for beginners

2 u need to cycle with fish and plants so the nitrogen fixing bacteria can establish themselves

Not that it probably matters, but lets see . . .

1. No its not, its simply more humane and just as many experienced aquariumists use that method, if not more because beginners typically don't know about it.

2. Again no. True nitrogen fixing bacteria take either N2 (atmospheric nitrogen) out of the air and fix it into ammonia (these bacteria play a very small role in the aquarium) or they convert ammonia into nitrite (typically the bacteria we desire in an aquarium), and they will convert any type of ammonia, including pure ammonia from ACE. Fish are not required for these type of bacteria to establish themselves.

So in conclusion;

1. This is neither a balanced nor a self-sustaining aquarium, nor is it natural (all natural systems have flow).
2. Its a whole lot more work than a traditional planted aquarium
3. It shouldn't be recommended to anyone, just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should.

 

[jpchin]

i'm not sure but i believe that my tank is close to this theory. i have a 45 gal. tank that has a grid of pvc pipes on the bottom. the pvc pipes have holes drilled in them. they are hooked up to 2 power heads that circulate the water. i have about 2-3 inches of gravel on the botoom of the tank. i referred to this as a ugf without the tray. i can clean the bottom of the tank in between the pipes and i do that once a week. i don't have any other filter on the tank. it took me about 6 weeks to cycle the tank (it's been up and running since jan. this year) i did a fish in cycle using water changes to keep my fish alive. they all made it through the cycle. my tank is about 56" long so i have a huge area for bb to grow on the bottom of the tank. i also have all live plants. about 30 in total. since the cycle i have had perfect numbers on my water. i do a water change every 3rd day because i have 2 rams (they are 10 months old) that are sensitive to water parameters. it seems that my tank might be close to what you are discussing however the tank was designed this way and nothing i did myself. the guy i bought it from said this filter(for lack of a better word) has been very succesful for them. it has for me too.

 

[Wy Renegade]

i'm not sure but i believe that my tank is close to this theory. i have a 45 gal. tank that has a grid of pvc pipes on the bottom. the pvc pipes have holes drilled in them. they are hooked up to 2 power heads that circulate the water. i have about 2-3 inches of gravel on the botoom of the tank. i referred to this as a ugf without the tray. i can clean the bottom of the tank in between the pipes and i do that once a week. i don't have any other filter on the tank. it took me about 6 weeks to cycle the tank (it's been up and running since jan. this year) i did a fish in cycle using water changes to keep my fish alive. they all made it through the cycle. my tank is about 56" long so i have a huge area for bb to grow on the bottom of the tank. i also have all live plants. about 30 in total. since the cycle i have had perfect numbers on my water. i do a water change every 3rd day because i have 2 rams (they are 10 months old) that are sensitive to water parameters. it seems that my tank might be close to what you are discussing however the tank was designed this way and nothing i did myself. the guy i bought it from said this filter(for lack of a better word) has been very succesful for them. it has for me too.

Nope, wouldn't qualify because you are running a "sort of" filter, and you do water changes every 3 days.

 

[bruinsbro1997]

I think that either way, this method has its flaws, and in the end it will end up to be a planted tank that has silent cycled. It's not natural to not have any flow, nor is it not natural to simply not do any water changes, as that's what mimics the flow of a river/stream, which gets rid of the harmful toxins in the tank. After reading through this thread I'm not sure if we are pro or con Walstad method here, but IMO her method is only for people who are experienced enough to do that. The fact that she now recommends a power head and somewhat frequent PWC just makes me believe her method will eventually fall back to a heavily planted tank just like anyone else's.

 

[GhillieSniper115]

I think that either way, this method has its flaws, and in the end it will end up to be a planted tank that has silent cycled. It's not natural to not have any flow, nor is it not natural to simply not do any water changes, as that's what mimics the flow of a river/stream, which gets rid of the harmful toxins in the tank. After reading through this thread I'm not sure if we are pro or con Walstad method here, but IMO her method is only for people who are experienced enough to do that. The fact that she now recommends a power head and somewhat frequent PWC just makes me believe her method will eventually fall back to a heavily planted tank just like anyone else's.

We are con walstad because it has nothing to do with a balanced aquarium

 

[GhillieSniper115]

To clear up some things:

1. You would cycle the fish and plants at the same time

2. Elodea plants are used and even if you just ad one, it will grow over an inch a day and is a vary hardy plant and removes alot of toxins from the water.

3. The fish used most commonly in this set up are mosquito fish and common guppies. They are extremely hardy fish and can withstand the ammonia during cycling. They also don't excrete alot of waste. You only feed the fish once or twice a week, and it's in small amounts. You can start out with a ratio of 1:2 male female ratio

 

[mfdrookie516]

This sounds more and more like what a new hobbyist would do without doing any research. Plain and simple, it's a horrible thing to suggest anyone do, as you clearly have no understanding of how it works, or at least can't communicate that to anyone. Can this work? Sure. Will it work the way you've described it? Not a chance.

 

[adeebm]

To clear up some things:

1. You would cycle the fish and plants at the same time

2. Elodea plants are used and even if you just ad one, it will grow over an inch a day and is a vary hardy plant and removes alot of toxins from the water.

3. The fish used most commonly in this set up are mosquito fish and common guppies. They are extremely hardy fish and can withstand the ammonia during cycling. They also don't excrete alot of waste. You only feed the fish once or twice a week, and it's in small amounts. You can start out with a ratio of 1:2 male female ratio

Yes, your idea is different from a walstad tank. Now, you say that the fish and plants have to be cycled at the same time. What exactly are you "cycling"? What we aquarists consider cycling is the cultivation of beneficial bacteria. Plants do not "cycle", only establish roots, assuming they were cuttings. Second, just because a guppy is "hardy" doesn't mean it won't experience pain, stress, gill damage, or other symptoms of ammonia poisoning. They are hardy in that they die less easily than most fish, but you are subjecting them to the same suffering as any other fish. The way I see it, your idea is just a fish-in cycle of a planted tank, yet without aeration or water changes. What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

The tank will not be "balanced" in any case. Your plants will deplete KH from the water, and fish waste will acidify the water. Even with the plants consuming organics and ammonia, you would still need water changes.

--Adeeb

 

[GhillieSniper115]

This sounds more and more like what a new hobbyist would do without doing any research. Plain and simple, it's a horrible thing to suggest anyone do, as you clearly have no understanding of how it works, or at least can't communicate that to anyone. Can this work? Sure. Will it work the way you've described it? Not a chance.

Then explain how I had this set up for a year without any problems? Because no one can do that for me

 

[GhillieSniper115]

Yes, your idea is different from a walstad tank. Now, you say that the fish and plants have to be cycled at the same time. What exactly are you "cycling"? What we aquarists consider cycling is the cultivation of beneficial bacteria. Plants do not "cycle", only establish roots, assuming they were cuttings. Second, just because a guppy is "hardy" doesn't mean it won't experience pain, stress, gill damage, or other symptoms of ammonia poisoning. They are hardy in that they die less easily than most fish, but you are subjecting them to the same suffering as any other fish. The way I see it, your idea is just a fish-in cycle of a planted tank, yet without aeration or water changes. What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

The tank will not be "balanced" in any case. Your plants will deplete KH from the water, and fish waste will acidify the water. Even with the plants consuming organics and ammonia, you would still need water changes.

--Adeeb

You should know what cycling is. It's to help make colonies of beneficial bacteria. As u are correct about the ammonia affect on the fish, my set up never had ammonia spikes or anything to harm the fish

 

[mfdrookie516]

Then explain how I had this set up for a year without any problems? Because no one can do that for me

Either because you've failed to do this....

This post was suggested by Eco so that i could explain this concept more indepth.

... or you're just really lucky, just like your luck with not using dechlorinator on new york city tap water (per another thread). I'm guessing it's the latter... so I'd suggest you go buy a lottery ticket and remember who suggested you do so