Betta together with a Red Claw Crab

[fishb0ne]

I stopped by the pet store looking or a 5 and a half gallon tank for my betta. While I was there I also wanted to get a ghost shrimp to act as a scavenger. Instead, the salesman told me a little red claw crab will have a better chance of surviving. So I got one. So far the two are living happily together, the betta spends most of the time above and the crab, when not climbing on the artificial plants, will hang around on the bottom. I've had the crab for about 4 days now. I admit that I did NO research beforehand and I basically placed my trust in the guy at the pet store and it turns out he wasn't 100% accurate. I didn't even know for sure what kind of crab I bought until I looked on the receipt when I got home: "red claw crab"

My questions are:
-is it true that red claw crab actually like a bit of salt in the aquarium? If yes, what would be the best compromise, as I do not want it to negatively affect the betta. I have read it is a good thing to have about a tablespoon of aquarium salt per 5 gallons and I added exactly that, as I have a 5 and half gallon tank. Betta is doing great
-What food pellets would you recommend? Anything in perticular?
-does he absolutely need something to climb onto and hang on the surface?
Here is a picture of my set-up.
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4094/1006575sg9.jpg
In the meantime I have added several things, read on. If you think it will help I can take a new pic, but you get the general idea. Tank also has a 7.5w water heater completely submersed and covered, it is keeping the temp at a comfortable constant 72*F. I also have a water pump with biofilter that I put on a timer and it runs 4 hours each day. Should I run it more than that?

It's a she, judging by the size of the claws and body. The plants you see in the pic are fake. However I added two live plants today and I noticed that she was nibbing at the roots. It seems she likes to get INTO my water pump and hang by the filter. I'm not quite fond of the idea, I tried to create a hiding place for her behind the plastic wood stump and so far she's been retreating there instead. I've also added a bamboo stick on which she can climb and stay at the surface if she wants to.
I hate the fact that I stumble upon conflicting info on the net. Some say they are fine in fresh water with no access to air, some will say they won't have a chance unless I set up a brackish water environment. Also, I've read in several places that aquarium salt will not do, I need the kind that's used to create marine environments. I have a hydrometer on the way via Amazon.com to see what the water salinity is at right now.

So what do you think? Will she live happily or are her chances pretty slim? I feel bad for her, she's missing two rear legs. Most likely she got attacked in the aquarium at the pet store and lost the fight. What else can I do to make it better for her and at the same time keep Rudi the betta happy? They have stared at each other several times and none displayed ANY aggressive behavior, so they're getting along fine so far

Thanks guys!

 

[rich311k]

The crab is a brackish animal. It needs totally different conditions than the betta needs. It will eat anything and if it gets a hold of your betta it will, at the least rip his fins to shreds. It is not a good combination.

 

[fishb0ne]

That's just freakin' great. So I'm stuck with either taking the crab back or setting up a different environment for her. I will have to do some research then, any quick tips to begin with?
But really, no chance they'll be fine together in that large of a tank? Just when I thought I was making some progress ... I've read that crabs, as the bettas, have personalities that differ. Mine seems to be on the shy side. When the betta gets around her she doesn't flinch and they've been together several times now, including once when the betta stumbled upon her in the little hole in the tree stump

 

[rich311k]

Not if you want them both to live long happy lives. The crab also needs to be able to get out of the water.

 

[An t-iasg]

I agree with Rich - unfortunately, this is a bad combination. It's a very good possibility, almost a certainty, that the crab will shred/attack the betta, Bettas are very slow-moving. (except when you want to get a picture! LOL)

A betta will be very happy in a 5 gallon tank. The temperature must be 80 degrees for a betta. You can use a 25 watt heater in a 5 gallon tank. You can also get a sponge filter and let it run all the time. A sponge filter runs through an airpump. You can also buy a "gang valve" to lessen the amount of air flowing through the sponge filter - you adjust the gang valve so that it bleeds off excess air. This will lessen the amount of current for the betta - they are not comfortable with a lot of water movement.

 

[fishb0ne]

*sigh*
So, any pointers where I would begin researching to create a small environment for one red claw crab?
What other cool scavenger would you recommend? Ghost shrimp I've heard it's a 50/50 chance the betta will nibble at it. I don't quite like corys

 

[Mosaic]

Welcome!

Cories wouldn't be comfortable in a 5 gal anyways. Most get way too big, and you need a group for them to be happy. Ever thought about mystery snails? They have a big fan club here. Or you can always give ghost shrimp a try anyways. They're not very expensive so you don't lose much if they do become a snack. I think there are a few people here who keep bettas and larger ghost shrimp together without too many problems.
BTW, I've never run heaters or any kind of pump/filters for my bettas (but the house is always a reasonable temp). PWCs and live plants will pretty much take care of your filtration needs. However, you'll probably need to do some research in order to keep the plants alive. That's something a lot of us here are really good at. Get pics of the live plants or figure out what kind they are and we can help you out.

As for the crab, I would just take her back. It's unfair to her to make her suffer because you're not able to meet her needs. Even if you did commit to setting up a separate home for the crab, she'd probably die before her new home was ready for her to move into. You can always try the species again later when you're prepared for them, if you'd like to try again.

 

[m_e23]

I kept a red clawed crab along with a dwarf puffer and platys (with a divider in the tank and the crab crossed to both sides) and I had no aggression problems either way. I even saw the fish grabbing food out of the claws of the crab and nothing. Make sure you tank is covered good because I thought mine was and it took a journey from the aquarium a good 4ft or so off the ground, under my door, down the hall and into my kitchen. Im not for sure about the life span but mine was in fresh water but only survived like 8 months. Like I said I dont know the lifespan and how old the crab was when I bought him but the brackish water requirement could have been a factor.

 

[fishb0ne]

Mosaic, if I take her back I believe she will die anyway judging by the conditions she was kept in: freshwater aquarium, no access to air, crowded with 50 other little critters. I can't handle animals suffering, I don't care if the damn ghost shrimp is free, being eaten alive is .. ugh! I STRONGLY believe she is better of in her present home.

You're gonna love this tho. My old man has a 75 gallon aquarium which is unused at the moment. I talked to him and we will set it up as a home if the crab can wait another week. You think she'll be fine for that long? If not, anything temporary that is better which I can do until then?

Check out the tank I'm talking about in the attached pic. We will have to use chlorine though for ALL the stuff you see in there because we had some pond fish which died, we suspect there may be a bacteria. If we do use chlorine, is it suffice if we rise everything out thouroughly, or is there something else we should do?
Her new place will be HUGE, 49 inches long, 20 wide. Temperature concerns? Is 65-ish at the lowest OK? I might be able to get more crabs with that space I think. Or some sort of other critters that get along together in the similar environment.

Again, any helpful hints in setting up the new environment for the crab are welcome. I guess there's a sense of emergency in all this too. I'll do some research on my own too tomorrow.

 

[hc8719]

welcome to aa

about your crab and salt concerns, (sorry if someone already said this) i was confused by this too about aquarium salt, but when they say a fish or crab needs brackish water, they mean marine salt, not aquarium salt.

judging by your first pic, the water could be a bit higher, give the betta more room to further avoid a snatching

how long ago did fish die in the 75 gallon, if its been dry for some time, i'd just rinse it out. do you plan to use pool chlorine to clean it out?

i dont know the differences of pool and tap water chlorine, so i don't know it dechlor would work. though really i think the best measure would be to dry out the 75 gallon, and give it a tap water rinse (unless you have a well, your water should have some chlorine in it anyways)

are you setting up the 75 gallon to be a brackish tank then? just the same, remember you need marine salt, aquarium salt wont do for brackish animals.

i cant say a ghost shrimp wont be ok with bettas, as i've never owned a betta, but given that the betta is well fed, and that the shrimp have adequate hiding spots, i think it may work

i'm a animal rights activist, so i know where your coming from, trying to do the best, thanks for caring

 

[tropicfishman]

defintly not a good combo, I had a couple small crabs I purchased form my LFS, they either figured out ways to catch and bother my fish or to escape, they are little genius's at escaping lol prisoners need to learn form these little guys lol

 

[Corey]

If you're planning on doing a brackish setup in the 75g, pull that driftwood out - it will quickly rot in the presence of salt, and driftwood tends to lower the Ph of a tank, which is the opposite of what you want in a brackish setup (you want high Ph and high alkalinity). It will also yellow the water.
Fake decor is generally recommended in brackish tanks (few live plants will thrive).

Also, like others mentioned, "aquarium salt" is a joke and a ploy to get money out of fish keepers, IMO. You need marine salt. I use Instant Ocean for my brackish setup, but any recognizable brand will do. For low end brackish (~1.005), try roughly 1 tablespoon salt/gallon of water.
Be sure to pre-mix the salt before introducing the crab and when doing water changes, as the addition of undissolved salt will "burn" the animals in the tank - I usually let mine dissolve overnight.

Cheers to doing what's best for your aquatic friends, and good luck with everything - a 75g brackish setup could house some really cool creatures (puffers, archers, mudskippers, anableps etc.)

 

[joannde]

I have a couple of ghost shrimp with one of my bettas - no issues at all. Of course, each betta is different so my experience is no guarantee that it could work for you.
Generally you don't need a "scavenger" for a betta tank - I know my guys NEVER let anything hit the floor - they've gobbled it up way before that LOL. Just feed one pellet or one flake at a time and food won't sink down - therefore, no need for a "clean up crew"

 

[coldmachineUK]

a 75g brackish setup could house some really cool creatures (puffers, archers, mudskippers, anableps etc.)

Just not puffers with that crab, or it'll be food for them before you can say "here crabby!".

I would possibly go with some chromide cichlids (you could get a pair of orange, and a pair of green in a 75G just fine I would think), and the little crabby. Archers will need a tight fitting lid, and tbh I don't think it's fair on them to be kept in an environment where they aren't able to utilise their natural feeding methods. Monos need to be kept in a shoal, and they require a deep tank, so I'm not sure they'd be a good choice either.

There's plenty of brackish fish out there though, including the often forgotten and neglected black molly. As someone said though, plastic plants, I'm afraid, are the order of the day. Even salt tolerant plants are still hard to keep in a brackish environment. Marine salt will help raise and buffer the pH, but you may also wish to consider some rocks that will do that, and also possibly using crushed coral as a substrate.

Do a google search for Neale Monks' brackish FAQ. Make sure it's a newer version you're looking at though (a mistake I made!). There's lots of great advice in there.

 

[fishb0ne]

hc8719

how long ago did fish die in the 75 gallon, if its been dry for some time, i'd just rinse it out

The fish died about a year ago, the tank has been dry ever since. Only the little ones died, we're talking coy here and I suspect they did so for other reasons, not the presence of bacteria. I suspect the rock on the bottom originate from salt water actually.

i was confused by this too about aquarium salt, but when they say a fish or crab needs brackish water, they mean marine salt, not aquarium salt.

The aquarium water I bought says on the box it's made from evaporated sea water. Still no good?

Corey

If you're planning on doing a brackish setup in the 75g, pull that driftwood out - it will quickly rot in the presence of salt, and driftwood tends to lower the Ph of a tank, which is the opposite of what you want in a brackish setup (you want high Ph and high alkalinity). It will also yellow the water.

Alright, wood is a goner. Is everything else OK to stay then, gravel and rocks? If I decide to go to freshwater sometime in the future the brackish will not have affected them negatively, right?


Alright, so on to setting up the environment for the little crab. By the way, she loves hiding inside the water filter compartment. She just hangs onto the filter and stays there. She was there when I went to bed, she was there when I woke up. Yesterday I bought some Tropica Fern for the betta aquarium so I took the crab out of the filter and next to the plant. Sure enough she started eating from the roots.

Here are my final questions
-for the betta, is it OK if I run the pump 2 hours a day? It does not create much of a current at all, but I did notice he is more lively when the pump is running. The filter is great, I ran it half a day once when the water got cloudy a bit and it cleared it right up
-how often should I change the water for the betta in the 5 gallon tank considering I'm also running the filter 2 hours a day
-how much room does the crab need? Would she be OK in something like this?
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/8844/1006570gz5.jpg
it is my old betta bowl, which is 9in tall, 8.8 in top diameter, 37 in circumference [at the widest point] and ... actually kinda thin. 1/8th of an inch. I filled it with water as you can see and it was ok
-water care for the crab. how much do I have to worry about filtering and changing it?
-preferred temp? is it OK if it gets to round 65 [but no lower?]

My concern is that if I do place the crab in that big 75 gallon, it will be a bitch to maintain the water. I will only put enough so that the rocks still stick out a bit. Under the gravel there are plastic filters [if that's what they're called] and I do have a water pump that could cycle the water [not with bio filter tho]. If I can go smaller than that I would rather do it that way.

Thanks guys for helping me out. I know I'm probably asking the same newbie questions you've seen over and over again and as I've said I'll do some research on my own as well but I'd like a place to start.

 

[Corey]

Alright, wood is a goner. Is everything else OK to stay then, gravel and rocks? If I decide to go to freshwater sometime in the future the brackish will not have affected them negatively, right?

Cool.
Everything else could stay in, and not be negatively affected by the salt (I'd recommend briefly rinsing everything in hot tap water before you start a new tank from scratch).
Although like coldmachine mentioned, there are rocks and substrates that will help to raise /buffer your pH that would better suit brackish critters's needs, but wouldn't be absolutely necessary. You could add them sometime down the line if you wished.

My concern is that if I do place the crab in that big 75 gallon, it will be a *I'm a potty mouth* to maintain the water. I will only put enough so that the rocks still stick out a bit. Under the gravel there are plastic filters [if that's what they're called] and I do have a water pump that could cycle the water [not with bio filter tho]. If I can go smaller than that I would rather do it that way.

Generally the more water, the easier it is to maintain water quality because toxins don't build up as easily. That's why the largest reasonable tank is recommended to those just starting out in fishkeeping, it's much easier to keep parameters in check in a large tank than it is in a small one.
You just need a place for the crab to get up and out of the water when it wishes, and from my understanding they actually spend very little time on land; therefore if I were you I'd fill the tank 3/4 of the way up in order to utilize as much water as you can, and just create a path for her to get to the surface. Something like a large piece of fake driftwood would be perfect.
I would imagine a single red clawed crab in a 75g setup this way would require very, very minimal maintenenace because you have a lot of water and a very small bioload.

I'm not sure how much of a budget you're on, but if I were you I'd scrap the undergravel filter (I just don't like them) and go with a simple in-tank filter or 2 (like this one: http://www.tetra-fish.com/catalog/product.aspx?id=282). They are very quiet, will work for biological and mechanical filtration, and you can adjust most of them to the level of the water.
And, if your water pump is a powerhead, you could add a pre-filter to it for added filtration.

Are you planning on keeping more than just one crab in the 75?
Don't get me wrong, I think it'd be a wonderful thing to move the crab into the 75g (lucky crab!), but that's a LOT of tank for one little girl.
After a while once you're used to the whole brackish experience, I'd encourage you to research tankmates for her. Like I mentioned, a 75g brackish tank filled 3/4 of the way up has a lot of potential to be a really neat setup.

Don't hesitate to ask questions, that's what these forums are for!

 

[fishb0ne]

Actually the Whisper is what I have in my current set-up but it's small, it can only handle 10 gallons at most.
What would be the absolute minimum for a red claw crab in order to keep him happy in terms of space? Also I addressed a couple of questions above in terms of the betta aquarium, filtering and changing the water, maybe you have some advice.

I might add tank mates for her but for now I just want to create a nicer home. Maybe get more red claw crabs?
With that much of a tank and that small of a bioload, assuming I use the pumb [turns out it just pumps air and cleans the gravel that way via the burried system], how often would I have to change it to maintain the quality?

Boy is she in love with that Whisper, she spends most of the time on top of it or inside, on the filter

 

[Corey]

What would be the absolute minimum for a red claw crab in order to keep him happy in terms of space?

I'm certainly no expert on red claw crabs, but I imagine a 10g tank could house one or two just fine (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
I don't think the betta bowl is suitable for a red claw, or much of anything for that matter. Even bettas should have tanks with proper filtration and places to hide (IMO).

Also I addressed a couple of questions above in terms of the betta aquarium, filtering and changing the water, maybe you have some advice.

With that much of a tank and that small of a bioload, assuming I use the pumb [turns out it just pumps air and cleans the gravel that way via the burried system], how often would I have to change it to maintain the quality?

As far as these other questions, I have no betta or UGF experience so I didn't want to comment.

As far as water changes, the best thing to do is to invest in a water testing kit. The liquid test kits are going to be the most accurate but there are cheaper 5-in-one strips that are certainly better than nothing.
If it is an established aquarium, nitrates is typically the only thing you need to worry about - simply do a water change whenever the levels get too high. You'll get a regular interval routine going.
If it is a new aquarium, you will need to keep an eye on your ammonia and nitrites as well - water changes are necessary until they also are in check.