Bringing out the reds.. yes another post

[sherry]

Okay.. I have heard several theories on this one.

Low nitrates... well a friend of mine has gorgeous reds while her nitrates are consistently around 20... her cuttings in my tank go green.

She has 4.5 wpg while I have 3 wpg ... it could be light intensity, but recently mark at annubius design suggested it could be the intensity of "blue" light... and suggested I add another 28 watt fixture with a 10,000 K bulb. The argument could work, because an overall higher intensity light would by its nature have more blue, even with 6700k bulbs.

any thoughts?

and finally there was a thread on aquabotanic that suggested it could be a matter of hgiher co2 and iron. Well I'm still working with excel and havent' turned on the co2 yet. Still really debating messing with my gorgeous soft water...

again any thoughts .. I'd like those nice rich reds but not at the expense of my softwater fish thanks!

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

How soft is your water?

I have a KH of 4 and can get hygro rosanervig to turn a deep red. the red doesn't seem to depend on NO3.

So going from my experience with 1 red plant since I can't recall my red ludwiga..

Co2 = 8PPM or less
NO3 = 10PPM unless dosed to 20PPM

Still red.

I do have a 50/50 bulb at the front of my tank.

Your friend could be right about the bulb. all leaves that are exposed to actinic lighting get red, all others that are exposed to 6500K only, are green with only a slight hint of red.

My lights are setup kinda wierd. I have 2 x dual 4' fixtures (1 T8, 1T12) both 1' above the tank. I have my old striplight sitting about 2" above the water surface at the very front with a 50/50 T6 bulb (Actinic/10K) so the light cuts down on an angle (visible before the mains come on) that actually puts a line through the plants. I'll try to get a picture of them and see if there is a definate colour difference where the plants are exposed to blues over where they get only reflected blues. Not the most scientific method, but I'm sure it will show if the blues will help.

 

[sherry]

water is still kh gh 2/2

I may try that extra fixture. it comes iwth a 50/50 bulb...

 

[crazycat]

sherry,

just to clarify for everyone:

i have 4 wpg--not 4.5
i have 2 10,000K bulbs and 2 6700 bulbs
8 dkh (relatively hard)
15.5 dgh (who knew it was that hard--it's 2 out of the tap!)
6.8 ph (acidic)
no3: 20ppm

i dose K2so4, plantex csm+b +iron +extra magnesium according to travis' schedule. and i do a 50% water change 1x/wk

and yes, my plants, epspecially the ludwigia repens, turn a beautiful red as the reach the surface.

and we'll see if i can actually grow tonina fluviatilis in my tank ;')

 

[sherry]

well according to Mark, your reds may actually be a result of those 10,000 k bulbs.

what does travis say about the effect of extra magnesium on reds? Mark seems pretty sure it is the blue light that gets absorbed... and works wonders.

oh, and as a side issue completely someone on apistogramma.com suggested lace rock may raise phosphates.... keep an eye out just in case.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Well, now that the tank lights are on I can tell you, the reds are located front and back which contradict the theory that Blue has anything to do with it.. I have some that are green at the front (directly under 50/50 actinic/10k) and some that are red at the back where there is no actinic aside from reflected light.

It must be something else. Just thought I'ld let you know. (all have a hint of red tho)

 

[sherry]

well, given Cat's tank.. reds don't require low no3, tho I'm sure that is one method... so what else?

 

[czcz]

I think of all things in the hobby, color is the one you have to experiment most with to figure out. It generally depends on the plant, but other places to start are increasing Fe/traces and simply more light. 10000K and especially GE 9325K bulbs definitely make reds pop, but I am not so sure it causes them, though absorbtion of different spectrum makes sense. Tom Barr often points out that the healthiest plants are green, and show red because we treat them badly by dropping N or messing with nutrients, btw.

 

[crazycat]

i'm actually going to stop the extra magnesium in my trace mix, since it seems to have raised my gh 5.5 degrees to 15.5dgh which is pretty hard--10 was better.

as for lace rock increasing phosphate, who told you and does anyone else know if this is true. i've been told by my knowledgable lfs (they REALLY are), that lace rock raises PH--but since i have a controller on my pressurized system, i'm not worried. i would be worried about the po4 though, if that's really true.

advisors: any info on lace rock raising po4?

 

[TankGirl]

My lace rock has not raised my PO4 in my African tank, and I test this often due to tap levels on the high side. The PO4 out of the tap gets used up readily by my plants in my community tank, but stays steady in the lightly planted African tank with lace rock. I have not seen any change since I added the lace rock six months ago.

In my case, which may or may not be relevant due to factors we may/may not be addressing, my T. roseafolia and P. stellata (more purple) really responded to raising CO2 levels along with slightly increasing iron. I maintain NO3 at 15-20 as best I can throughout the week. This tank is 4.7 wpg.

Interesting discussion!

 

[sherry]

Turns out the phosphate comment was made by one of the senior posters on apistogramma.com. I've asked him to explain how and why.

I'll post if he answers.

sorry .. the original of this post was wrong

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Still, chlorophyll is a lot like good health -- we only tend to notice it once it's gone. We tend to think about leaf colour in fall simply because this is when teh leaves are no longer green. A few plants have non-green leaves throughout the summer, however. For example, the leaves of a `Schubert' chokecherry are green in spring, but distinctly red-purple throughout most of the summer. In this case, chlorophyll is present and functional in the leaves throughout the summer, but as each leaf ages, another type of plant pigment known as an anthocyanin begins to accumulate, tinting the normal green to a red-purple. Anthocyanins pigments range in colour from red to blue, and are responsible for most plant parts that are coloured red blue and purple. In a large number of plants, the level of anthocyanins tend to build if the plants are exposed to bright light when the temperatures are low. This is also why we see an increaseing reddening of some plants in fall.

Just something interesting that I read about while researching, thought of you

The third pigment.

Carotenoids are the third major type of plant pigments. These pigments normally range in colour from yellow and orange to red. It's easy to remember the name of these orange pigments once you know that they were first identified as the colouring agents in carrots. Yellow carotenoid pigments are present in most leaves during summer, but because chlorophyll is also present at this time, their yellow colour is concealed. When a plant suffers from a lack of nitrogen, however, the level of chlorophyll decreases, and the yellow colour of the carotenoid pigments become more obvious. Very often, when a plant turns yellow, it is because the chlorophyll level has decreased, and the carotenoid pigments have simply become more obvious.

source = http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=10&q=http://gardenline.usask.ca/trees/fall.html&e=9797

 

[sherry]

thanks wizzard. now can you help my stunted macrandra ?

 

[Glenc]

Hi Sherry, you know my set-up pretty well. I have a constant 25 to 30 ppm CO2. 24-7. I run 4 6700K bulbs and one 10000K bulb in the middle. Of all the elements in my tank I believe the lighting has the most effect on making my plants red. HTH

 

[caribou]

Lace Rock

I have a huge piece of lace rock in my 90 gal tank and it hasn't effected any of my water parameters that I can detect. I test my water a couple of times a week and have had this piece of rock for over a year. It hasn't changed my phosphates at all, they're always at 1.2-1.5.

 

[travis simonson]

I'm with czcz, lighting is probably the number one factor in bringing out reds. The K rating isn't necessarily as important as the intensity of the lighting. This is why you see many plants displaying brighter red colors as they approach the surface (and the lights). Appropriate trace/Fe supplementation will also help quite a bit. NO3 starvation combined with high (1.5-2.0 ppm) PO4 levels can also help intensify the reds in many species of plants but can be detrimental to their long-term health. Adobe Photoshop has also proven to be one of the most useful tools for bringing out unbelievably brilliant red coloration in plants, fish, rocks, heck, even water

As for lace rock and PO4, I have over 100 lbs. of it in my 125G, use a LaMotte PO4 kit on a weekly basis, and can state, unequivocally, that the lace rock does not affect my PO4 levels at all. It may have a slight hardening effect on my water column, but I also have carbonate buffered substrate for my African cichlids so any increase in hardness from the lace rock is lost in the background noise.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

I'm not so sure about the intensity, as I ran between 260W and 520W on my 75G, and they are still turning green. And in my 26G, I've got 65W and still turning green, but not near as much. Has some red, but slowly losing it. Seems like the higher the intensity, the faster it loses it's red and turns green. Could be worth checking out.

Edit:

The L. repens in my 26G, the upper portions are green, closer to the light, and the lower portions where there's shade, is still red. Maybe should be kept in lower light?