Can I use EI successfully with Excel as carbon source?

[threnjen]

So first off I'll say - I know I need pressurized CO2. It's just not in the budget yet. But yes, I'm aware that I really need it if I wish to improve.

My tank is 90g with a 29g sump for about 110g of water running in the system. I have light as high as I need it (Build My LED 10000k planted with a dimmer), so my limiting factor is not light. I run my light on full brightness only 6 hours a day since I don't have CO2. When the light switches off, my sump light and algae scrubber switch on to deliberately take up any excess ferts.

I don't have *much* problem with algae. I occasionally get a smidge of green algae on my glass, which I clean off at my weekly water change. I'm getting the tiniest bits of black brush algae which I know is the bane of the algae kingdom and I've done my homework that this is generally a low CO2 imbalance problem. So my algae isn't nonexistent, but I would definitely classify it as low.

My current ferts regiment is 11mL per day using the PPS-Pro system macros/micros, and 11mL of Excel (actually metricide mixed 50/50 with water so technically a bit weaker than Excel). I dose before the lights come on.

I would like to switch to EI dosing. I want to still do it every day since the algae scrubber will take in all the excess after lights out, so I can't necessarily do the macro/micro thing every other day successfully without creating nutrient imbalances.

Can I do EI if I'm using glutaraldehyde as my carbon alternative?
Can I/should I dose more Excel daily?
Will EI just be too much for my system without true CO2?

Thanks!

Edit to add: Am I just not understanding something about this calculator
http://rota.la/
For example for K2S04 (Potassium) it's telling me to add 316g to my 500mL dosing solution bottle if I plan to dose 11mL 3x weekly. So if I dose 6x weekly but use same size dose (11mL) I would add 158g. PPS-Pro uses 30g in the 500mL bottle, dosing 11mL daily... So I add 5x the amount with EI?? Am I calculating that correctly? These systems seem to be EXTREMELY different.

 

[Rivercats]

You can actually use a liquid carbon without CO2 in a high light tank. I ran my 220g very high light tank well over a year using only liquid carbon at a rate of 1ml per every 1 gallon of water and never had algae problems. I dose PPS-Pro daily instead of EI tho.

I would suggest using Metricide 14 Day Solution which is about $20 a gallon online. It's double the strength of Excel and can be used full strength at half the amount or you can dilute it at a 1:1 ratio with RO or Distilled water and use at the amount I listed.

Depending on the amount of Excel you use now I would build up to higher levels over a period of time.

 

[misterc007]

I would say yes you can. You could also start at at 1/2 the dose of normal ei if you wanted to or you could start full and adjust down. I'm sure you've seen this but if you haven't there's a lot of info on the subject of EI.

Estimative Index

I think from what I've been reading, you want your lights to be your only limiting factor (meaning duration and intensity) That way the plants have all the fert's and carbon they need to grow and your light controls the speed at which they do so.

I can't comment on glut because I don't use it.

Im 40ppm no3 5 ppm po4 35-40 ppm co2 and algae is in check unless I decide to screw things up which I often do lol

 

[threnjen]

You can actually use a liquid carbon without CO2 in a high light tank. I ran my 220g very high light tank well over a year using only liquid carbon at a rate of 1ml per every 1 gallon of water and never had algae problems. I dose PPS-Pro daily instead of EI tho.

Depending on the amount of Excel you use now I would build up to higher levels over a period of time.

So you were successfully dosing 220mL a day? And your fish were all right with 1 mL/gallon? I didn't realize it could be overdosed at this high of a rate. With a gradual ramp up, of course. I'm definitely going to start increasing, maybe go up to 20mL a day for a week, then up from there. My solution is slightly weaker glut than Excel anyway.

I'm definitely using metricide, just saying Excel for convenience/recognizability

Thank you!

 

[threnjen]

I would say yes you can. You could also start at at 1/2 the dose of normal ei if you wanted to or you could start full and adjust down. I'm sure you've seen this but if you haven't there's a lot of info on the subject of EI.

Estimative Index

I think from what I've been reading, you want your lights to be your only limiting factor (meaning duration and intensity) That way the plants have all the fert's and carbon they need to grow and your light controls the speed at which they do so.

I can't comment on glut because I don't use it.

Im 40ppm no3 5 ppm po4 35-40 ppm co2 and algae is in check unless I decide to screw things up which I often do lol

Yeah I tried to do a lot of research on this especially at Tom Barr's site, but I saw a lot about CO2 being such an important limiting factor, so I was worried about adding so many ferts without "true" CO2.

I'm interested in your numbers - I didn't realize you could keep PO4 so high!

I have so much to learn when it comes to plants... ferts... CO2... I can throw around cycling help like nobody's business but talk to me about my aquarium plants and my eyes just glaze over in confusion

 

[misterc007]

So first off I'll say - I know I need pressurized CO2. It's just not in the budget yet. But yes, I'm aware that I really need it if I wish to improve.

My tank is 90g with a 29g sump for about 110g of water running in the system. I have light as high as I need it (Build My LED 10000k planted with a dimmer), so my limiting factor is not light. I run my light on full brightness only 6 hours a day since I don't have CO2. When the light switches off, my sump light and algae scrubber switch on to deliberately take up any excess ferts.

I don't have *much* problem with algae. I occasionally get a smidge of green algae on my glass, which I clean off at my weekly water change. I'm getting the tiniest bits of black brush algae which I know is the bane of the algae kingdom and I've done my homework that this is generally a low CO2 imbalance problem. So my algae isn't nonexistent, but I would definitely classify it as low.

My current ferts regiment is 11mL per day using the PPS-Pro system macros/micros, and 11mL of Excel (actually metricide mixed 50/50 with water so technically a bit weaker than Excel). I dose before the lights come on.

I would like to switch to EI dosing. I want to still do it every day since the algae scrubber will take in all the excess after lights out, so I can't necessarily do the macro/micro thing every other day successfully without creating nutrient imbalances.

Can I do EI if I'm using glutaraldehyde as my carbon alternative?
Can I/should I dose more Excel daily?
Will EI just be too much for my system without true CO2?

Thanks!

Edit to add: Am I just not understanding something about this calculator
Yet Another Nutrient Calculator
For example for K2S04 (Potassium) it's telling me to add 316g to my 500mL dosing solution bottle if I plan to dose 11mL 3x weekly. So if I dose 6x weekly but use same size dose (11mL) I would add 158g. PPS-Pro uses 30g in the 500mL bottle, dosing 11mL daily... So I add 5x the amount with EI?? Am I calculating that correctly? These systems seem to be EXTREMELY different.

That calculator can be a little screwy when you ask it to do that. You would need to think in terms of increasing your dose if you want to use a solution.

Or here is a conversion that is a little easier to remember and do with different sized tanks should you have more then one.

500 ml bottle

30 g kno3
7.5 g kh2po4
10 g k2so4
20 g mgso4

dose 5 ml per 10 gallons daily
That would be a rounded off EI type solution dose

or 2 ml per 10 gallons daily would be pmdd+po4


traces, you could do different things, I do 500 ml bottle 20 g csm+b and dose 1 or 2 ml per ten gallons daily. Depends on plant load.


I like to dose every day when my tank is full of plants, at times where its not I might go twice a week. In other words (my opinion) if you only have 2 swords and 1 crypt in a 50 gl tank your probably not going to need to dose every day.

MY ideas come from here:

James' Planted Tank - PMDD
Want more accuracy? Want daily PMDD style EI dosing? - Aquarium Plants

 

[Rivercats]

So you were successfully dosing 220mL a day? And your fish were all right with 1 mL/gallon? I didn't realize it could be overdosed at this high of a rate. With a gradual ramp up, of course. I'm definitely going to start increasing, maybe go up to 20mL a day for a week, then up from there. My solution is slightly weaker glut than Excel anyway.

I'm definitely using metricide, just saying Excel for convenience/recognizability

Thank you!

I made it easy and dosed 9 ounces daily which is more than 1ml glut per 1 gallon of water. Diluted Glut, not straight from that bottle. I did this for way over a year (probably closer to 2) without any problems. My fish still spawned and honestly I believe the higher levels of glut actually kept my nerites from laying many eggs. I still use 6 ounces of glut daily in that tank along with the CO2.

A little fact most people don't know is when you actually overdose with a liquid carbon the water will cloud up shortly after dosing and be clear the next day. I've actually tested this and indeed when too much glut is used the water does indeed cloud up. I've done a lot of research and experimenting with liquid carbon and learned that the higher the light, the higher the bio-load, and the more plants, especially fast growing stem plants require the use of more liquid carbon.

 

[threnjen]

That calculator can be a little screwy when you ask it to do that. You would need to think in terms of increasing your dose if you want to use a solution.

Or here is a conversion that is a little easier to remember and do with different sized tanks should you have more then one.

500 ml bottle

30 g kno3
7.5 g kh2po4
10 g k2so4
20 g mgso4

dose 5 ml per 10 gallons daily
That would be a rounded off EI type solution dose

or 2 ml per 10 gallons daily would be pmdd+po4


traces, you could do different things, I do 500 ml bottle 20 g csm+b and dose 1 or 2 ml per ten gallons daily. Depends on plant load.


I like to dose every day when my tank is full of plants, at times where its not I might go twice a week. In other words (my opinion) if you only have 2 swords and 1 crypt in a 50 gl tank your probably not going to need to dose every day.

MY ideas come from here:

James' Planted Tank - PMDD
Want more accuracy? Want daily PMDD style EI dosing? - Aquarium Plants

Great, thank you for the clear directives!

 

[threnjen]

I made it easy and dosed 9 ounces daily which is more than 1ml glut per 1 gallon of water. Diluted Glut, not straight from that bottle. I did this for way over a year (probably closer to 2) without any problems. My fish still spawned and honestly I believe the higher levels of glut actually kept my nerites from laying many eggs. I still use 6 ounces of glut daily in that tank along with the CO2.

A little fact most people don't know is when you actually overdose with a liquid carbon the water will cloud up shortly after dosing and be clear the next day. I've actually tested this and indeed when too much glut is used the water does indeed cloud up. I've done a lot of research and experimenting with liquid carbon and learned that the higher the light, the higher the bio-load, and the more plants, especially fast growing stem plants require the use of more liquid carbon.

I am QUITE excited about the possibility of less nerite eggs... I know you saw my other post that they are absolutely taking over my decor.
I didn't know that re: the clouding, that is excellent information.
Sounds like I am going to start ramping up my glut addition.
Thanks Rivercats, as always!


... as a side effect glut will become a more expensive solution and my husband will be more inclined to agree that CO2 is more cost effective in the long term, and be more amenable to its addition. Am I terrible?

 

[Delapool]

Yes! I was just thinking 'crap the cost'..,

I ordered it online but it got stopped at state border - the family now think I was ordering dangerous goods!

 

[threnjen]

Yes! I was just thinking 'crap the cost'..,

I ordered it online but it got stopped at state border - the family now think I was ordering dangerous goods!

Oh no Did you still have to pay for it or was it returned to sender??

 

[Delapool]

It said returned to sender so I tried cancelling the order. Pain in the neck as I couldn't return it as it never arrived so I'm hoping eventually I get my money back. I usually order just a bit to try so don't lose too much - I think not getting the order hurts more. The shipment would have been at half price too even after postage which doubled the cost (grumble, grumble)....

 

[threnjen]

That totally sucks!!!!


Sooo think I ODed my glut today. I was in a huge hurry this morning to take my kids somewhere so rushed through my ferts dosing and I *feel* like I carelessy put in a full cup (30mL) of glut instead of my already newly elevated dose of 20mL. I got home 5 hours later and the water is cloudy and there's a dead Oto at the top
Gotta figure out how to explain this cloudy water to the spouse or he's gonna kill me for tinkering with my ferts plan >.> He hates that I mess with stuff when it's not broken (which perhaps isn't unreasonable. I just always think I can be "better"...)

He doesn't want CO2 because he's worried about the fish getting gassed to death, so if I just liquid carboned the oto to death this is not going to help my case.

 

[Delapool]

Maybe it died of 'old age'?

 

[threnjen]

Maybe it died of 'old age'?

I don't think he's going to buy that one, since all the otos are new
They ARE pretty sensitive little fishes though. But for one to up and die, I definitely made the water less than ideal. The Cardinals aren't showing stress though, so it's somewhere non-ideal in between "oto stress" and "cardinal stress"

 

[Mebbid]

Otos in my experience die for absolutely no reason when they are new. It might not be correlated at all.

 

[threnjen]

Otos in my experience die for absolutely no reason when they are new. It might not be correlated at all.

I know =/ They are farmed so inhumanely and are so weak. Still hard to think there wasn't SOMETHING to do with it though, since the slightest drop in water quality kills them.

 

[hroom88]

Yes! I was just thinking 'crap the cost'..,

I ordered it online but it got stopped at state border - the family now think I was ordering dangerous goods!

certain ferts like kno3 are not that easy to obtain in many parts of the world. kno3 is an important ingredient in making explosives. In my hometown, some stores where they sell lab grade nitrate refused to sell without a permit/licence. For the others(mgso4, p2ph4, etc) I was asked for a written declaration. Previously when I attempted to order the stuff via ebay, they were stopped by the customs(of course, they were right in what they did, & I still got the nitrate, but that's another story ).

 

[Delapool]

Yeah, know what you mean. I looked at the ferts but left it for the moment.

The liquid co2 I was really surprised with. And it seems to have come into Australia ok but not across the state border (bah, humbug!).

 

[Rivercats]

If the tank water is not cloudy within 24 hours then it is indeed an overdose. Building up dosing slowly seems to avoid this unless you grossly overdose. I agree that Oto's just die. Plus if only one oto was affected and none of the other fish or oto's were acting strange or listless I'm not inclined to think it was the liquid carbon. The glut could have just been the icing on the cake for an already weak fish. I use 1ml liquid carbon for every 1 gallon of water in my 55g nano fish tank which has many wild caught species in it. Many shrimp on the other hand don't do well at all in higher levels of glut.

You can gas your fish with CO2. I didn't have any issues in my one 55g with CO2 but when I got it running in the 220g I almost gassed the fish twice in the same week. I have a bugger of a time with that tank. I finally went to keeping a nano powerhead on each end of the tank, right at the surface of the water. I aim them right at the surface so there is a lot of movement for moving CO2 out of the water at night. They are set to turn on when my lights go out which is 1 hour after the CO2 is turned off for the day.