Can't keep top strata fish alive

[megsiup]

I have a 20-gallon hexagonal community freshwater tank. Obviously since there is more vertical space than horizontal, I have tried to keep a balance of bottom, mid-strata and top strata fish so all the space is utilized.
In the 4 years that I"ve had this tank set up, I can't seem to keep any top strata fish alive for more than a few months. I've tried guppies, neon tetras, white clouds, danios, and at least one or two other common top feeders that I'm forgetting. Everything dies out, either right away or within a few months. I've also noticed that some fish that were supposed to stay at the top don't (maybe they're trying to escape whatever the problem is?)
Meanwhile, I have 4 year old tetras and 2 year old corydoras in there, and even had corydoras breed in the tank, so obviously this is some kind of weird localized problem to the top of my tank.
I have a couple of theories: One, we have a pretty strong filter that was rated for a larger tank, so there is a pretty good current at the top of the tank. Two, none of my plants reach to the top, so maybe the fish don't like being out in the open. (I once tried floating plants, not sure if it helped). Three, maybe the water is not mixing properly and there is a water quality issue at the top that is not affecting the mid-bottom water.
Any ideas for either diagnosing the problem or purchasing top-level fish that are really hardy?
Current tank residents are 4 black-skirt tetras, one red minor tetra, one neon tetra, one white cloud, one glass catfish, and five corydoras. (The single fish are all holdovers from groups I purchased where the others eventually died out).
Thanks!

 

[mfdrookie516]

start by telling us more about your tank... what do your water parameters average at? ph stable? lots of surface agitation up top? what filter(s) are you running? Also, have you gotten all of your fish at one lfs or multiples? How do you acclimate your fish? Im sure i can think of a few more questions to ask, but see what you can answer there before i continue

 

[megsiup]

Thanks for responding! I can tell already I'm out of my league here...I honestly have no idea about the ph or water parameters. I've taken water to the store a few times in the past to be tested, but not for over a year. I do use treatment chemicals when adding new water, and use EasyBalance weekly in between changes. I always use filtered, aged tap water when adding water.
There is definitely a lot of surface agitation. The filter we are running is a Marineland Penguin Biowheel 200. My husband bought it on advice of a salesman.
The fish have been added in stages over time and 2 are still living from the original community tank setup in January 2006. I always buy 3+ individuals when adding a new species of fish to the tank. I acclimate them by floating the bag for 10-20 mins, then opening the bag and adding some tank water, letting them acclimate to the mixed water about 10 mins, and then finally releasing the fish into the tank.
What does lfs mean? I've seen it a few times on the boards now

 

[mfdrookie516]

lfs= local fish store, or something of the like... hard to really pinpoint anything without water tests. My first suggestion is to break down, spend $20, and order an API Master FW Test Kit... Now, assuming your water tests ok (big assumption there), a few other questions... how often do you do water changes and gravel vacuums? How much water do you change? I know it seems wierd to ask about water quality and everything, but you could just have some tough fish that are left, and the weaker of the fish youre bringing home arent able to withstand the water conditions (if theyre not good)... Also, a good tip for acclimating fish... Drip acclimation! You sort of have the idea, but assume your water parameters are different than those of the tanks at the store... now, think about the shock to the fish if you ph is alot different, or you nitrates/nitrites/ammonia... get the picture? If you slowly drip water through an air line to a bucket below the tank, usually about an hour (for me at least), you slowly acclimate them not only to the temperature, but also the water conditions... get the picture? Also, never put water from the store in your tank, no telling whats in it. Maybe somebody else could have some suggestions on other possible causes?

 

[megsiup]

Excellent, thanks! Water test kit is going on the shopping list. I don't add the store water to the tank--I net out the fish. I get the idea on the drip irrigation and could use an old 2 gallon tank for that purpose. Great idea!
As for the water changes...Since I started using EasyBalance I have done water changes every 6 months and treating weekly, following the guidelines on the product. It seems to have worked fine--only one or two deaths of established fish since starting this system about 8 months ago.
When I change water every 6 months, (and I know this is technically wrong), we actually transfer the fish and half the water to a 10 gallon holidng tank. We drain the big tank and clean it, the ornaments, plants and gravel completely by hand with a sponge and old toothbrush (no cleaning chemicals, just elbow grease and rinse water), add aged, filtered, treated water to the cleaned tank, and then add some of the original tank water back in. So the fish are going back into a tank with probably 2/3 new water and 1/3 old water.
I tend to wait to add new fish until after we've done a water change.
Please don't beat me over the head with a rubber mallet. I know this is not the correct way to do things, but I have never had anyone show me how to do things properly and we found a system that seemed to work for us. We tried to vacuum the tank and it uprooted all the plants, bubbler and ornaments, and we had to drain it out and redo the whole tank setup anyway. I find it completely impossible to arrange the bottom of the tank when it's full of water--this is a hex tank that is a lot deeper than it is wide. Once things pop out of the gravel you can't re-bury them properly. We find it much easier to drain it out to clean it and put things back together in the empty tank.
Random related question--how often should I change the filter cartridge?
Thanks for the help and I hope I'm not setting off the "terrible tank keeper" alarm bells...I thought I was better than a lot of people who do no research at all...but the more you read, the more you find out you're doing wrong.

 

[mfdrookie516]

nope, no head bashing... First thing i am going to recommend is to stop using the easy balance "junk"... Do you have a gravel vac or a python system? Weekly or bi-weekly water changes are the best way to keep a tank healthy. That alone could be the very problem. If you want to make a shopping list, and i apologize if i list anything you already have...
1- Either a gravel vac or python (or off brand)...
2- Prime water conditioner- this is the best imo
3-API Master FW Test Kit

Now, as for the filter cartridge replacement... i just replace mine when they start falling apart... i rinse them each time i do a water change. (i have 2 filters on my 55g with 2 cartridges each. i clean each filter every other week). I rinse them in a bucket of water taken from the tank during the water change. This is important, as alot of your beneficial bacteria (we will get to that in a minute) are in the filter cartridge. Also, when doing a 100% water change, you are most likely killing off that beneficial bacteria that breaks down the ammonia in to nitrites, then to nitrates which are alot safer for the fish if kept under control. If you dont already know about cycling, read the links in my signature. When you do a 100% water change and clean everything like that, the tank has to cycle again, allowing ammonia to build up to toxic levels for the fish. Never rinse anything in tap water as it has chlorine in it, which kills that good bacteria that you want. Just keep in mind that that bacteria is not in the water column, but on the surfaces inside such as the gravel, plants, glass, filter, etc... So, putting that tank water back in the tank after cleaning basically just put dirty water back in it, if you catch my drift.... Does all that make sense or have i confused you?

 

[megsiup]

Oh no...I thought that putting the original tank water back in would "seed" the good bacteria. Here we are scrubbing everything down so it looks pretty and removing all the bacteria in the process.
Which begs the question, what does a healthy tank look like? Should there be some brown stuff and green algae on the ornaments and sides of the tank? (My tank "decor" is white architectural ruins, so maybe buying white stuff was a bad idea. Or maybe I should embrace the "sunken gardens" look!)
We bought a basic gravel vac awhile back, used it once to great frustration, and I just discovered it's not here, so my husband probably ditched it in our move 1 year ago. So I can take your recommendation on what kind to buy now, but I need to know how to use it properly. We didn't know what the heck we were doing, uprooted everything and then gave up and did it the way we always did.
You are probably very right that what we have is hardy individuals that have survived. I guess I need to get very diligent about partial water changes. How much should I change on a 20 gallon tank if I do it biweekly? I travel a lot for work so weekly is just not going to happen.
My husband is going to enjoy not having to drain the tank and carry it to the bathrub for scrubbing.

 

[mfdrookie516]

well now algae is caused by other things, generally too much light and overfeeding... feed every other day just what the fish eat in 2 minutes... if any makes it to the bottom, youre feeding too much... you said you have plants, are they live or fake? If theyre fake, you dont need the light except to see the fish... as for water changes, i do 50% weekly in all of my tanks, just because i can, which takes me forever! (i have a 150g, 55g, and two 10g's).... really, your water tests will determine how much you need to do, but i would say no less than 25% bi weekly, you may need to do a 50%, again, all depending on your test results... Look through the picture galleries on here and look at some of the tanks... mine are nothing to look at, i have no aqua-scaping abilities at all lol. I would recommend a python or off brand of the like, just because it is so easy to use... you hook it up to your sink faucet, and it will both vacuum and fill, which really comes in handy on bigger tanks (can you imagine filling a 150g with buckets?)... If you dont see a need for it, dont have a faucet within 25-50' of the tank, or just dont want to spend the $20 on one, a simple siphon gravel vac will do, and work just as well... I am really curious as to your water parameters right now... id love to see the results of a test just to see what theyre reading. just to show you mine, here are pictures of my 150g, and one of my planted 10g's...again, theyre definately nothing special

 

[JustOneMore20]

Good info from mfdrookie.

Just to add to what he said, I definitely think getting another siphon is a good idea. Here is a pic of what I suggest: http://www.petco.com/Assets/product_images/9/9403616316B.jpg. It doesn't have to look exactly like that. You will have to start the siphon yourself...most people suck on the end....do this while the other end is in the tank and have your bucket ready. Then, you can use the large end to pick up any debri in the bottom of the tank....don't have to be real vigorous and uproot stuff, just pick up debri and you can stick it in the gravel wherever there aren't plants or decorations. Drain about 25% or so of the water and then replace it with new water and dechlorinator. Then you are done! You can scrub the ornaments if you like when they get algae on them, but don't clean the gravel. And you can rinse your filter cartridge in the tank water you took out.

Do that every week to 2 weeks and the new fish you get should thrive. I would probably start this new water change routing and do it for about a month before trying to add new fish again. And definitely get that test kit, just so you can know what your levels are if fish die.

Oxygen levels are generally higher in the top part of the tank, so top strata fish shouldn't have problems. They share the same water as the lower fish, so if something was going on inside the tank, it should affect all of them.

I think with you doing the serious water changes and scrubbing every 6 months, the fish in the tank have gotten used to that and new fish were kinda shocked. It could be that the new fish were weak to begin with too.

The python that mfd is talking about is a water change system that connects to a faucet so you can drain the water, then fill without using buckets. It is really worth the money. That is what I use on my freshwater tanks and I wouldn't go back to buckets! This link shows you how it works. And here is a link to the actual python.

 

[DragonFish71]

All very good advice given and I can't add anything to it.

As for ideas on top strata fish, try hatchets. We keep them in our 29g and there is lots of surface agitation, which they love. We use 2 power filters, and an undergravel with a power head, not to mention 3 air stones. The only time we lost any of them was to jumping, which I have fixed that problem.

 

[megsiup]

Thank you all SO MUCH!!! I feel like I am coming out of the fog and getting things figured out, finally. I went to the store today and purchased a gravel vac and just did a 50% water change. I got a vac with a much slimmer tube this time, and that seems to have made a huge difference in the ease of use. The kind I got can be started by shaking it up and down in the water, so no sucking. My tank is too far from the sink to run a hose between the two, but I have lots of containers to empty into, so no problem. I also purchased a soft sponge to remove the algae from the tank walls. I'll leave the ornaments alone for now.
In short...no more drastic water changes and total scrub-outs for me!!!
In a week or so I'm going back to get my water tested (they'll do it for free) and see how things look before I add any fish. (Sorry I didn't test before the change--who knows what was going on in there).
I really like the idea of the hatchet fish if they actually will tolerate the high current at the top of my tank. Once the tank is ready to add fish I will see if I can find them.
Thanks again to all and I'll drop an update when there is news!