chain sword going transparent...

[JDogg]

ok all the leaves on my Narrow Leaf Chain Sword are going transparent...

might be a deficiency, like K or Fe, but... i dose IE...

~30 ppm NO3
~4 ppm PO4
~30 ppm K
~5 ppm Fe (in the form of CSM+B)

PH= 6.8
KH = 13

DIY CO2

light is ~2.6 wpg T8s

i first noticed this late last week, before doing a MAJOR re-aquascape...
removed a VERY LARGE Wisteria and some VERY fast growing Hygrophila polysperma v. Ceylon as part of the Full on Amazonification of the tank (75 in my sig).
my though is the fast growing wisteria and hygro may have been taking up too much of the nutrients and causing me to now see a deficiency in my chain swords...
what do you all think?
do you think that with those plants removed, i will see the chain swords bounce back.
or am i missing a problem somewhere else?


here is a picture...

 

[rkilling1]

Fisrt off, that's a lot of CSM+B are you sure it's 5 PPM Fe?

How hard is your water? are you sure you are getting enough Ca and Mg?

EDIT: with a change in your tank (ie removal of the other plants) it will take some time to notice a change in the other plants. It may take a week to two weeks to see this difference.

 

[JDogg]

Fisrt off, that's a lot of CSM+B are you sure it's 5 PPM Fe?

lol sorry 0.5 ppm Fe

How hard is your water? are you sure you are getting enough Ca and Mg?

lets just call it liquid rock i can drink... without Co2 KH is around 25 degrees and GH is around 20 degrees..... with the limestone bedrock Ca should not be a problem
acording to my cities water report the tap water contains 77.7 mg/l Ca and 29.4 mg/l Mg HERE

EDIT: with a change in your tank (ie removal of the other plants) it will take some time to notice a change in the other plants. It may take a week to two weeks to see this difference.

 

[rkilling1]

lets just call it liquid rock i can drink... without Co2 KH is around 25 degrees and GH is around 20 degrees.....

CO2 doesn't change your KH or GH only your pH.

I would say your swords do have a nutrient deficiency somewhere, but since you remove a lot of nutrient absorbing plants, I would wait and see what happens.

HTH

 

[JDogg]

lets just call it liquid rock i can drink... without Co2 KH is around 25 degrees and GH is around 20 degrees.....

CO2 doesn't change your KH or GH only your pH.

I would say your swords do have a nutrient deficiency somewhere, but since you remove a lot of nutrient absorbing plants, I would wait and see what happens.

HTH

i added infor about Ca and Mg above...

well my tap water tests different for KH then the tank water does :?

 

[rkilling1]

well my tap water tests different for KH then the tank water does :?

Some plants can use the carbon from carbonate hardness (KH) and that is why you see a difference.

 

[JDogg]

well my tap water tests different for KH then the tank water does :?

Some plants can use the carbon from carbonate hardness (KH) and that is why you see a difference.

makes sence

so do you think i should do anything or should i just "stay the course" ?

 

[rkilling1]

so do you think i should do anything or should i just "stay the course" ?

All of your ferts are in range and your lighting looks good. So I think you should just give it some time and see what happens. The other thing I would suggest would be root tabs, because swords are heavy root feeders and that WILL help them grow regardless of how much nutrients there are in the water column.

HTH

 

[JDogg]

so do you think i should do anything or should i just "stay the course" ?

All of your ferts are in range and your lighting looks good. So I think you should just give it some time and see what happens. The other thing I would suggest would be root tabs, because swords are heavy root feeders and that WILL help them grow regardless of how much nutrients there are in the water column.

HTH

i am always forgetting something..i do use flourish root tabs, but it also probabaly time to add some new ones... has been ~2 months...

 

[Peyton]

Just wondering if maybe they were getting shaded by some of the other plants? I've noticed my dwarf sagittaria will do the same thing if they don't get enough light.

 

[JDogg]

Just wondering if maybe they were getting shaded by some of the other plants? I've noticed my dwarf sagittaria will do the same thing if they don't get enough light.

they shouldn't be... here is a full tank shot, you can see the chain swords up front...

 

[JDogg]

well it has been a week or so since i started this...

they are STILL showing signs of a deficiency... even the leaves of the new growth is going transparent....

again... dosing

~30 ppm NO3
~4 ppm PO4
~30 ppm K
~5 ppm Fe (in the form of CSM+B)

PH= 6.8
KH = 13

DIY CO2

light is ~2.6 wpg T8s

Flourish Tabs and 50% Eco-compleat substrate....

only thing i can think of is my CSM+B went bad...i mix 500 ml at one time...just finished that bottle last night and there was a lot of un-dissolved "stuff" at the bottom...so maybe they were not getting as much iron as they should have?

have also notices some DOS on the surface despite two powerheads moving things around...one 2" above the substrate and another pointing opposite direction 2" from water surface, as well as so BGA

might do a blackout to kill BGA while i am out of town for thanksgiving 3 days...

Thanks for any Help and Advice you can give

Aquarium keeping was so much easier before i discovered live plants :?

 

[7Enigma]

Aquarium keeping was so much easier before i discovered live plants

No truer words have ever been spoken.

Can you elaborate on how you are dosing your ferts (ie when and how), specifically the CSM+B? Are you dosing once at the beginning of the week, then doing a big PWC at the end of the week, then dosing again? Or are you dosing 2-3X per week with the above amounts? Last but not least the newb question (sorry I have to ask!), your dosing the phosphate and CSM+B on separate days correct?

CSM+B for iron suppliment is great, but due to the recent colder weather I have stopped the pre-mixed formula and gone to dry dosing. While not as accurate, I was also seeing the large amount of precipitates in the bottom of the bottle and wondered how much was actually getting into the tank.

The transparent leaves look like iron deficiency IMO. You can eliminate today the possibility of a K deficiency by double dosing for a few weeks. I wouldn't dump all 60ppm in on the same day, but if you normally dose 2X per week, jump up to 4X per week for just the potassium. Potassium in your case has NO chance of causing any form of problems (sometimes high K can cause Ca or Mg lockup, but you CLEARLY don't have that worry).

 

[Purrbox]

Your trace dosing is rather high. Normally you should only need to dose 0.1 - 0.2ppm fe 2-3x per week. It looks like you're dosing about 10x that amount.

Have you tried putting root tabs under the affected plants?

 

[JDogg]

Aquarium keeping was so much easier before i discovered live plants

No truer words have ever been spoken.

Can you elaborate on how you are dosing your ferts (ie when and how), specifically the CSM+B? Are you dosing once at the beginning of the week, then doing a big PWC at the end of the week, then dosing again? Or are you dosing 2-3X per week with the above amounts?

those amounts are weekly totals (CSM+B should be 0.5 ppm not 5 ppm :? )
50% PWC on saturday... Macro Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday and Micro Monday, Wednesday and Friday

Last but not least the newb question (sorry I have to ask!), your dosing the phosphate and CSM+B on separate days correct?

yeap

CSM+B for iron suppliment is great, but due to the recent colder weather I have stopped the pre-mixed formula and gone to dry dosing. While not as accurate, I was also seeing the large amount of precipitates in the bottom of the bottle and wondered how much was actually getting into the tank.

how much dry CSM+B would you suggest for a 75 gallon?

The transparent leaves look like iron deficiency IMO. You can eliminate today the possibility of a K deficiency by double dosing for a few weeks. I wouldn't dump all 60ppm in on the same day, but if you normally dose 2X per week, jump up to 4X per week for just the potassium. Potassium in your case has NO chance of causing any form of problems (sometimes high K can cause Ca or Mg lockup, but you CLEARLY don't have that worry).

ok, i can give it a try...

Your trace dosing is rather high. Normally you should only need to dose 0.1 - 0.2ppm fe 2-3x per week. It looks like you're dosing about 10x that amount.

sorry see above...typo should be 0.5 ppm Fe NOT 5 ppm...

Have you tried putting root tabs under the affected plants?

they are... :?

thanks

 

[7Enigma]

For a 75gallon I have no idea. Basically what I did was took my normal stock solution (1/2 tablespoon into 4oz), found out how many days (doses) it took to use it up (I was doing 10ml doses every other day), and then divided that dry amount by those doses. That told me about how much to add at each dosing. It's definately not an exact measurement, but I can be sure when its being added to the tank that there is SOME iron present.

If your only dosing 0.5ppm per week, you might want to up it to 1ppm per week (0.2ppm per dose). I think a lot of us dose between 0.1 and 0.2ppm.

Please note I do a 50% PWC once a week.

 

[rkilling1]

This one has got me confused. You dose CSM+B and have root tabs under the swords, so I wouldn't think it would be an Fe problem. You said it is effecting your new leaves as well, so it could be Calcium, Manganese, Copper, Sulfur, Iron, or Boron.

I believe it's safe to say that Manganese, Boron, and Iron are covered by the CSM+B dosing. (You really don't have that many plants, so EI dosing should leave the tank with an excess of these in it.) Plus you have root tabs that are feeding the swords some Fe.

Sulfur normally comes from ones tap water, but you also have it coming from the root tabs and assuming you dose K2SO4, you also have some from that. So sulfur is covered.

That leaves Ca and Cu.

Normally with hardwater, you will have a lot of Ca in it, but I have heard of some people's water only containing Mg, or should I say containing very little Ca.

CSM+B has 0.1% copper in it, but I do not know if that is enough to sustain a high level of plant growth. If you have Cu pipes in your house, then it would be safe to say that Cu is not the problem.

CSM+B for iron suppliment is great, but due to the recent colder weather I have stopped the pre-mixed formula and gone to dry dosing. While not as accurate, I was also seeing the large amount of precipitates in the bottom of the bottle and wondered how much was actually getting into the tank.

I leave my premixed CSM+B in my refrigerator, so I don't believe weather is playing apart in your dosing. If you read Tom Barr's EI article, He says to put it in the refrigerator to help keep mold from growing in it.

 

[JDogg]

For a 75gallon I have no idea. Basically what I did was took my normal stock solution (1/2 tablespoon into 4oz), found out how many days (doses) it took to use it up (I was doing 10ml doses every other day), and then divided that dry amount by those doses. That told me about how much to add at each dosing. It's definately not an exact measurement, but I can be sure when its being added to the tank that there is SOME iron present.

well right now i am mixing 3 table spoons of CSM+B with 500 ml of water...thing is i did not write down the day i started... so i do not know how long the bottle lasts... add to that the fact that i use the same bottle for dosing in the 75 and two 10s :?...

there must be an easier way to figure out dry CSM+B dosing...

EDIT>>>
why am i adding 3 tablespoons to 500 ml???? GregWatson say 1 tablespoon to 500 ml and then treat as 1.25 times Flourish... so i am dosing 3x more powerful then i thought i was.... that doesn't sound right... could it be i have too much Fe...?

ok so i am in fact dosing 1.5 ppm Fe each week :? i think now i am confused where did i get the above mix from???

i dose ~15 ml 3x per week of 3 tablespoon/500 ml CSM+B mix into a 75 Gallon tank

now i have gone and confused the hell out of myself... 8O

might explain the thread algae though...

EDIT #2>>>

This one has got me confused. You dose CSM+B and have root tabs under the swords, so I wouldn't think it would be an Fe problem. You said it is effecting your new leaves as well, so it could be Calcium, Manganese, Copper, Sulfur, Iron, or Boron.

I believe it's safe to say that Manganese, Boron, and Iron are covered by the CSM+B dosing. (You really don't have that many plants, so EI dosing should leave the tank with an excess of these in it.) Plus you have root tabs that are feeding the swords some Fe.

Sulfur normally comes from ones tap water, but you also have it coming from the root tabs and assuming you dose K2SO4, you also have some from that. So sulfur is covered.

That leaves Ca and Cu.

Normally with hardwater, you will have a lot of Ca in it, but I have heard of some people's water only containing Mg, or should I say containing very little Ca.

CSM+B has 0.1% copper in it, but I do not know if that is enough to sustain a high level of plant growth. If you have Cu pipes in your house, then it would be safe to say that Cu is not the problem.

have coper pipes and Limestone bedrock so both Cu ad CA should not be a problem... i can post my cities water analysis if it would help....

oh i also forgot to mention i dose Flourish Trace with my PWC

 

[rkilling1]

How old are you light bulbs? and type please.

Is this effecting any of your other plants?

EDIT: CSM+B is normally mixed 1TBSP to 250mls of water or 2 TBSP to 500ml's in your case. That would be dosed @ 15 ml's 3x a week for an Fe dose of .2. You are dosing to get Fe to .3 PPM. That is not bad.

 

[JDogg]

added link above to cities water analysis

How old are you light bulbs? and type please.

T8, bought them in August, All-Glass Brand the 6500 K ones

Is this effecting any of your other plants?

nope