Confused...

[heartsx2]

Hi, I'm new on this site. I've been trying to read up on some of the lighting issues but I'm afraid I'm even more confused. I have had an African Cichlid tank, a turtle tank, and now want to setup a planted community tank.

I have a 90 gallon with a florescent light fixture. Can I buy a florescent light for this fixture that can be used in a planted tank? There is a 48" 40W, 18,000k Power-Glo that I was looking at. The best I can tell from some of the postings is that you can have too much light (algae) or not enough (kill your plants). Would this bulb work and if not, what would work with my fixture?

I was also hoping to use standard gravel (whitish in color) but I know plants need more than that. I'm just not sure what my options are (cheapest...).

I also don't understand the CO2 issue. Other than the lighting and gravel, is there anything else I must do?

Oh, and when I had my cichlid tank, I would just remove the rocks and siphon the gravel. In a planted tank where roots are bedded, how do you clean the gravel?

I appreciate any help I can get!!!

 

[Jchillin]

Welcome to AA!

To have a healthy planted tank, you need to provide at least 1wpg of light at minimum. This will provide just enough light for you to keep low-light plants. The bulb you mention, if you had two of them, would only provide 80w total, leaving you short 10watts.

Most folks have found that using PC's or ODNO flourescents work to provide enough lighting for the planted tank. You can find PC's at large LFS or order them online.

CO2 injection is a method of supplementing carbon dioxide, which plants need to survive (in the nitrogen cycle, plants consume CO2 and give off oxygen via photosynthesis). This is only necessary for the most part if you use more than 2wpg.

The beauty of the planted tank is you don't have to gravel vac as often or as thoroughly as a regular tank. The detrius is also used as a nutrient source for the plants as well. When you do vac, you only need to vac in areas of significant or suspected accumulation.

As with any tank, if your nutrients are not in balance, algae is sure to take advantage of it. Algae uses the same nutrients as your plants. Lighting should only be on in 10-12 hour cycles.

HTH.

 

[greenmaji]

You really cant get enough light intensity with regular NO lighting (in a 90 gallon tank, its very tall).. CF is self explanatory.. ODNO.. you can search hear on the forum for it and if you have any more questions about it just PM me..

 

[heartsx2]

Thank you! I also found some info. on plantgeek.net for basic low light type planted aquariums...

If I were to go with a PCF at 2.24 wpg would this still be considered low level lighting for low light plants? That can use standard gravel? And would I need to do anything with CO2 then? Or have I gone too high now?

 

[Jchillin]

Yes, you will need CO2 once you go over 2wpg. This is considered medium to high light in terms of plants that can be kept.

 

[Steve Hampton]

Remember when you were planning your African Cichlid tank? You probably spent a lot of time and research to decide which species to keep together and in what order each should be added. A planted tank also requires planning ahead of time too. The first question to ask yourself is how much time do you want to spend trimming plants, rearranging, and dosing fertilizers. This can be from daily to monthly depending on the amount of lighting you choose. If you want to go slow and learn as you go and really don't want a lot of maintenance then you'll need to plan a low light low tech planted tank. Choose lighting that is 1 to 2 watts per gallon and no CO2. With this setup you can choose plant species such as Anubias, Java Fern, Java Moss, and Cryptocorynes. The other advantage is all but the Crypts don't need substrate to grow. The Crypts do but plain gravel with Seachem Flourish Tabs or equivalent works well under these low light conditions. I'd also highly recommend using Seachem Excel to help you plants thrive...just make sure you never overdose. Keep your fish load at moderate levels and limit water changes to one every couple of months...yikes, did he say every couple of months? Yes. Taking this approach will allow you to have a planted tank with very little work and very little problems. Later as your green thumbs develops you can increase your lighting levels, add CO2 injection, start dosing all the nutrients in quantity, pick more demanding plants and begin harvesting gobs of excess plants to sell to support your new passion.

 

[aqh88]

If your starting out with a lightly planted tank I definitely wouldn't suggest monthly or less water changes. Stick with at least every other week. Once you get a heavily planted tank you can cut the water changes but I still do twice weekly on my heavily planted tank and dose nitrates. The only reason to do less water changes is to let the nitrates build but unless you have alot of plants with co2 this isn't a problem.
It is entirely possible to go over 2wpg(180watts) or even 3wpg(270watts) without co2 but it becomes much harder to balance the plant growth with the algae. At that light level the plants can't grow fast enough to stay ahead of the algae and your glass will probably be coated in spot algae. At less than 1wpg(90watts) there are very few plants you can grow. Java fern, java moss, crypts, and anubias might survive but would grow much better at 1-2wpg especially in a 2ft high tank like a 90g.

 

[Steve Hampton]

If your starting out with a lightly planted tank I definitely wouldn't suggest monthly or less water changes. Stick with at least every other week. Once you get a heavily planted tank you can cut the water changes but I still do twice weekly on my heavily planted tank and dose nitrates. The only reason to do less water changes is to let the nitrates build but unless you have alot of plants with co2 this isn't a problem.

There are actually several reasons and they are at least in my opinion very important as to why a low light non CO2 tank runs best without water changes. It's not limited to trying to allow nitrate to buildup...that could be accomplished with nitrate dosing. More importantly is allowing nutrients and DOC's to buildup and act as natural chelation for metals and to lower toxicities. Additionally, by not doing water changes you are allowing the substrate to become a nutrient sink and where insoluble iron and phosphorus are reduce to soluble forms that plant roots can assimilate. I do the opposite for my high light CO2 injected tanks, they get 50-70% weekly water changes. I'd never suggest running a CO2 injected tank without frequent water changes.

But this really illustrates how many opinions and possibilities there are to achieve success. Personally I've done things "my way", note I didn't say "the way", and I've repeated the same methods dozens of times over dozens of years successfully. While I'm fairly set in what I've found that works repeatedly for me, I'm also openly suggesting and encouraging everyone to never be satisfied with reading a single book, reading a single answer posted on a forum, or listening to a single person's view face to face. Instead assimilate and collate as many sources as you can find and arrive at either a consensus opinion or the opinion that seems most grounded in logic and scientific evidence. The internet can spread good information or bad information with almost exactly the same speed. It's my opinion that you should always check any information you receive online with multiple sources both online and printed.

 

[czcz]

Steve,

I'd never suggest running a CO2 injected tank without frequent water changes.

Even low light tanks with CO2 injection? Why? Thanks.

 

[greenmaji]

A low light tank with CO2 injection isnt something someone would normally consider.. If I understand Steve's philosophy there is only two types of tanks low tech low light tanks and high light high tech tanks with CO2 injection.. I dont think he would normally think of a low light tank that has CO2 injection.. but I could be wrong... LOL

 

[czcz]

I get the impression Steve has more first hand experience with all types of planted set ups than you and I combined.

I'm thinking this has to do with making sure trace elements don't need to be replenished through water changes, and limiting macro uptake. I'd like to try to see for myself, but fear Steve has a reason why its dangerous for the fish.

 

[greenmaji]

I dont know who your talking to czcz, you know I dont have any experiance whatsoever LOL, but I was making that comment based on reading steve's site and his posts here and on other forums. And yes I am quite aware steve is a guru.

 

[czcz]

Actually, I didn't know (remember?) your experience with planted tanks. I had assumed you had one previously.

Yeah, I always enjoy Steve Hampton's posts.

 

[greenmaji]

Ive had a few plants in my tanks previously.. nothing that would quaify as a planted tank though. Im a very quick study though..

 

[heartsx2]

Thanks for all your help! Of course, since I posted this, I've sold my 90 gallon and I'm setting up a 29 gallon (it was a dumb decision but what's done is done). Still need a stand and canopy though (anyone have one in Illinois??) Anyway, I decided on a low-light tank and posted another message to make sure I have everything in check. I think so...

Thanks again!

 

[aqh88]

When doing a water change you don't have to do a gravel vac. My first tank I setup has never had a gravel vac and had about 200 applesnails in it at one point. Just changing the water won't remove many nutrients and it will stop nitrates from building up in a tank that is not yet using alot of nitrates. Adding fresh water is not only good for the fish but will restore some nutrients that would be used up by plants and reduce others that are getting too high. Fish food is not made with all the elements to keep a planted tank balanced. Even in nature water is constantly being replenished in various ways. Few fish live in pools that cycle the same water through over and over.
Low light tanks can benefit from added co2 as I've seen from a few different setups other people have done but like a high light tank without co2 it's harder to balance.

 

[Steve Hampton]

Steve,

I'd never suggest running a CO2 injected tank without frequent water changes.

Even low light tanks with CO2 injection? Why? Thanks.

Sorry to be so late in responding.

There are two methods of keeping planted tanks that I've found to be easy and repeatably successful year after year.

One is the low light non CO2 injected tank that runs with a low bio-load and no water changes. These tanks when six months mature will sustain their beauty and static aquascape for months at a time and rarely ever face algal issues.

The second is a high light CO2 injected tank. If you provide macro and micro nutrients in a wide but ample range along with ample CO2 injection these tanks can be algae free and stunning...however, the maintenance and pruning along with a difficult task of maintaining its static looking aquascape is very challenging. The key to success for most people is do 50-70% weekly water changes that allows for lots of nutrient dosing, yet not allowing a buildup due to the dilution with the water changes. Remember a water change dilutes all nutrients within the tank by the percentage of the water changed...assuming the source water doesn't contain much in the way of the dosed nutrients, then none of the dosed nutrients can exceed double the dosed amount.

Finally the answer to the question. The reason for my exclusion of CO2 injected low light tanks is based on nutrient consumption rates. When you add CO2 injection to a low light tank the plants are going to take in more nutrients, when that occurs you are leaving the door open to running low and needing to dose, when you have to dose it's too easy to get out of balance if you aren't doing water changes. So, from my experience it completely possible to have any style of tank, mixing light intensity and CO2 injection if you are willing to ride a razors edge of balance...but, through many trials and helping scores of other folks online (and my own dozens of tanks over the years) that those two extreme styles...low light non CO2 injected tanks with no water changes and high light CO2 injected tanks with 50-70% weekly water changes offer the most consistent repeatable way to have an algae free tank. Again to make it clear...it's NOT the the only way, it's just a repeatable way I've found, basically copying Tom Barr and Diana Walstad advice and methodologies.

 

[Steve Hampton]

I get the impression Steve has more first hand experience with all types of planted set ups than you and I combined.

I'm thinking this has to do with making sure trace elements don't need to be replenished through water changes, and limiting macro uptake. I'd like to try to see for myself, but fear Steve has a reason why its dangerous for the fish.

No danger to fish. And I'd be very disappointed if something I posted ever stopped you from experimentation and discovery for yourself. The only reason I have more experience is am OLD and being doing this for 35 years, though heavily into planted tanks the past 10 or so. But, please read what myself and others be they new folks with fresh ideas or oldtimers like my and then try things out for yourself...then start another tank with a different approach. Compare what methods work best for the amount of time you wish to devote and the look you want to achieve and maintain. Frankly, experimentation is too much fun and I feel terrible if I were to deny you the fun of accidentally creating an algae farm, and then the satisfaction of controlling and eliminating that same algae.

 

[heartsx2]

I like the low-light / no-water-change idea. But I have a few questions.
How many plants would need to be in a 29 gallon tank? I was looking at starting the tank with 8 plants. Is this enough? I really wasn't thinking of going heavily-densed. Also, would this mean no water changes from day 1 when starting up the tank? What conditions would I see that would indicate a water change was needed?

Thanks for your help!
Denise

 

[greenmaji]

Have you read this?
http://www.aquariaplants.com/lowlighttank.htm