Cycling problems?

[kjenglish]

Hello,
Upon following this guide, I have been doing a fishless cycle for my first ~5 gallon tank.
I am using ammonia to supplement the tank, and have found that 5-6 drops, about 1 ml, will dose the tank to 4-5ppm of ammonia.
I started the cycle just over a month ago (1/28). Running the filter, (no seeding media sadly), air stone, and heater in the mid 80s

I now a month into the process, I am still testing (API Master) and have pretty consistently been getting ammonia dropping about 2ppm every 24 hours (dosing it back up daily), but have not seen any nitrites appear. PH is at about 8. Is this normal? I feel anything I have read says after about a month you should have gotten a nitrite peak by now...
Is there anything I am doing wrong or that I need to additionally do?
Just a side note I believe we are on mostly well water, the lid of the tank is pretty much covered in, I am presuming, a white calcium deposit. I am adding API tap water conditioner and heavy detoxifier to our fill jug prior to adding it to the tank.

Thank you for your help!

 

[threnjen]

Hm, that is unusual to have no nitrites with ammonia dropping.
Can you test for nitrAtes? That will tell us more (make sure to do the test very carefully, that one is easy to mess up)

 

[kjenglish]

Yeah, thats what I thought especially because it has been dropping consistently for a couple weeks now. Test we did indicated 1-2ppm for nitrates, I will test again and double check it when I get a chance to personally do it (my girlfriend did the last test... She is a chem/bio major so I am sure she tested accurately, but better to have 2 people test. Tank is also at her place)

 

[kjenglish]

I did another test and found the same results:
Ammonia 1ppm, dosed back up
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 1-5ppm

The only thing I may have overlooked is PH. On the high PH it looks like we have about 8.3, however it has always been more pink. I thought it was just the test's color being off, but maybe not?
Here is our well water source: Dropbox - Error - Simplify your life
Here is our tank water: Dropbox - Error - Simplify your life
Either way, the nitrites should atleast show up if the ammonia is going down right?

 

[kjenglish]

Just tested water through an RO, and found the water to be 7.4 in high ph.
What is the take on RO systems here? I have heard good things and I have also heard bad things....

 

[threnjen]

If you dose ammona to 2ppm, is it gone 24 hours later? If so your tank is cycled, nitrites are not. However, you should have more nitrAtes than that in a tank that has been processing a lot of ammonia. You'll have appx. 3.6ppm NitrAtes for every 1ppm ammonia that the tank has processed. Have you done a water change recently?

Your tank conditions should be optimal for fastest growth. 8.3 is actually the ideal pH for bacterial growth, and then water in the mid-80s, so the environment you are providing is ideal.

* Have you done any water changes during the cycle?
* Appx how many times have you dosed ammonia (so an appx. of how much you have added total)
* Is your tank VERY heavily planted?

Are you certain you guys have the nitrate test correct? I was getting "bad" results and I had my husband do it and.. he did it incorrectly also. Reading the same directions. We are both very technical people too, so that was unlike us. We kept misreading "bottle" for "vial". Are you shaking bottle #2 for 30+ seconds before adding drops to the vial, then shaking the vial for 1 minute? I'm definitely not trying to talk down at you, just confirming that you didn't make the same mistake that I did for a looooong time. For a while I just thought my tank was really special and ate a lot of nitrates.

 

[kjenglish]

Yeah, the ammonia drops about 2ppm every 24 hours. We have not done any water changes actually, only added water as needed.

I am now not so sure that the tank is actually at 8.3. The color of the vial has a lot more pink than anything the card shows. The tank does not currently have RO water in it. When I tested some RO water for PH, the color was much more accurate to the card. I think my PH in the tank may be closer to 9 or maybe more, but the API test does not go that high.

We have been dosing ammonia for probably 3 weeks now, almost every day.
We do not currently have any live plants. A couple of fake ones and a plastic gazebo type thing

Yeah, I am sure we did the test right, inverting the vial 10-20 times after adding the drops of bottle 1, and then shaking bottle 2 (I did for 1 min), before adding the drops to the vial, and after adding drops shaking the vial for 1 min. To be on the safe side I will test one more time, shaking both bottles, and the vial after each step, for 1 minute each.

I think I will be doing a large water change with RO water to see if that helps to give me a more accurate PH test color. Just have to sit and wait for my RO to charge and put out enough water to do that as it is quite slow after 1/2 gallon, it practically stops...

 

[Caliban07]

This is a tad strange. I would have expected ph to drop if anything given the amount of ammonia you are dosing in a body of water so small and using well water.

If I were you i would do a 90% water change and dose ammonia to 1ppm. I would also add a couple of pinches of fish food for phosphate.

Go easy on the ammonia from now on and see where it goes from there. You could have 'phosphate block'

 

[kjenglish]

did a large water change with RO water, not quite 90%, but enough it should have lowered the PH a little. Letting the tank cycle until I can test it later. If it is still high when I am off work tonight, I will repeat....
Also added some ground up fish food, it has been a while since I did that

 

[kjenglish]

So as I said before, I did about a 50% water change with RO water yesterday, and the PH still looks a bit pink, but it has a lighter hue to it though than before. I also added a little bit of fish food. I did not add any more ammonia after the change.

Thismorning I had the following:
PH: 8.3 or unknown - still more pink in color
Ammonia: .5ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 1-5ppm
I added 2 drops more of ammonia after testing.

Should I do another water change to try and lower the PH more? Is there anything else I can do?
Is there any chance that the brackish water (adding salt to about 10 in salinity) or the "biomax" filter could be causing an issue? We took out the activated carbon filter when we started the cycle.
We cleaned everything in near-boiling hot water (nothing else) too after our fist try (before we knew about cycling, the fish got sick and died), could that have caused an issue? I am not sure what else to do. All these problems are starting to take their toll, and I really do not want to start from scratch yet again...

 

[kevan07]

I think your pH might actually be 8.4. Do you have flourecent (sp?) lights either on the tank or in your house? If so hold the test tube over/under the florecent light and then compare. My vile always comes up looking magenta pink but when I hold it over a florecent light it matches the 8.4 perfectly.

 

[kjenglish]

Sadly I think every light we have is either incandescent or LED. I think I will just bring in a sample here and there to get tested at the pet store to confirm the PH

 

[kjenglish]

Ok Guys, any more help for this one? I am seriously thinking about calling it quits. Everything is still the same after an additional week (and yes, I added some ground up fish food to both the filter and the tank):

PH: 8.4 in shade, but more pink/magenta in color
Ammonia: .5-1ppm (doesnt seem to drop below this even if left a day or 2 before test and adding more? maybe due to fish food?)
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 1-5ppm

To clarify, for the nitrate test I am:
1) rinse the test tube with tank water and then fill to 5ml
2) add 10 drops of bottle 1
3) shake test tube for 1 min
4) shake bottle 2 for 1 min
5) add 10 drops of bottle 2
6) shake test tube for 1 min
7) wait 5 min and read
side note... any solution for leaky caps for the test tube? I always seem to loose some drops when shaking.

Edit: Upon reading more I am seeing some people say to bang around bottle 2. Literally bang it on the table? or is the extra time sufficient?

 

[Reedy]

Hi Kjenglish

I feel your pain! Sorry to hear things seem to be baffling!

Not sure if you've done the things listed below and only quickly read through your thread regarding PH ect. I hope it can help you somewhat
Leave your new water (I read your on well water? without going from this page...not sure how this works) and test PH 24hrs later..This helps to give you a 'True' PH test (I encountered similar on my post) You maybe done this already, apologies if this is the case.
I always thought adding salt/saline increases the PH? Hence Bicarb of soda or coral added to tank if PH dropping during cycling..
I read people use peat to lower PH...
What brand of Ammonia? Any Surficants/perfumes/additives?
Just trying to help you go back to the start without undoing how far you have come already...Dont give up!!
I sincerely hope you get to the bottom of your mystery and please, anyone here who disagrees with my pointers, please do. I've taken these from a few months of research and my own experience but know info can get conflicting

Hang tight!
Trace x

 

[Reedy]

I just posted something else but was on the wrong page! Apologies if you get this via email - it was meant to be on my post

 

[sillyshortee]

idk how to delete sorry. I accidently posted here.

 

[kjenglish]

PH may be a contributing factor, however, it really comes down to the fact that the tank has been cycling for atleast 6 weeks now, ammonia dropping for 4-5 of those or more, and I have no nitrites or nitrates showing up...

I will try a PH test after the water settles and reply back with it.
The ammonia is the janitorial one from Ace, which many people recommend. No added stuff, shake it and it does not foam.

 

[kjenglish]

So I have gone to two different stores, both confirm that my PH at the moment is at 8.4, and that I have no nitrites or nitrates, and everything else looks ok. This means I have not produced any nitrites yet, and my ammonia has been dropping for weeks now.... So I guess I just have vanishing ammonia that does not convert to anything? does not make any sense. It is a small 5 gallon tank too, it should not take this long should it?

Tested my water before the tank and it is at about 8-8.2.

 

[threnjen]

I think you should give up and move to fish-in. Totally serious. Somehow, some why, it's just not meant to be. I see no reasons why the cycle is totally stuck. Not that I have the cycling encylopedia in my head but... I am just totally out of ideas =/

 

[kjenglish]

That is kindof what I am thinking... I at least know that my ammonia bacteria are present. I think I am going to wait a week or so just in-case I was not patient enough for the nitrites to appear for 6 weeks....