Cycling question

[nlifs]

Hello again!

Yet another newbie question ...

I've had my tank for a few weeks now and was trying a fish-in cycle with a few platys. Unfortunately, looks like they came sick from the store and all three passed this week.

Here is my question - all dead fish have been removed and the latest measurements are as follows:

Ammonia - 0 (been zero for a few days already)

Nitrites - seems like between 2-5 ppm (hard to tell exactly). I did a water change before the last two fish died which brought the nitrites down to 2 but it looks like they're creeping up

Nitrates - looks like 5 ppm but I realize that may be a false positive

I am planning on going to my LFS on Sunday (it's not so close and I don't have too many options to go during my schedule) to get a few more fish (likely 3 more platys) and some live plants.

What can I do to try and make the cycle move faster (and possibly even finish?) to be as safe for the new fish as possible when I get them?

I called the LFS and they recommended adding a pinch of food (which I've done), and add SeaChem stability every day until Sunday.

Is this good advice? I was thinking of adapting this slightly, as follows:

- do a large water change to get the nitrite level down Thursday (add Prime during the water change)
- Sunday morning, before going to the fish store, add a bottle of Tetra SafeStart Plus

And then go and get the plants/fish.

Thoughts?

 

[Andy Sager]

AT this point, I would switch from the fish in cycle to the fish less cycle. Here's what's happened:
You had ammonia so microbe #1 developed and converted that to nitrites. ( That's supposed to happen. )
There is still no microbe #2 to convert that nitrite to nitrate ( and your nitrate level probably is not from the initial ammonia being converted. Check your source water for nitrates to confirm this. )
So at this point you need to keep feeding microbe #1 ammonia in order for it to keep living. This can be done by adding any ammonia that does not have any additives to it. ( I used dollar store ammonia and it worked fine.) If you add the ammonia at a level of 2-4 ppm, that will cause the existing microbe bed to grow larger causing the nitrite level to be higher which will make a larger bed of microbe #2. Since there are no fish or anything alive in the tank, do not change any water.
Assuming your nitrate came from the source water, when the nitrate level starts climbing and your nitrite and ammonia levels are both 0, your tank is cycled and you can add more fish. ( Be careful what fish you get. If they do not look healthy, do not buy them trying to save them. If you go with more Platies and for most fish, healthy ones will have their fins erect and be actively swimming. If there are fish in the store's tank not looking like this, do not buy from that tank. )

Hint: Because you are showing nitrites and your ammonia is 0, your microbe #1 bed is already established so will grow rather quickly when you add the ammonia. If your nitrate level did NOT come from your source water, it would mean it came from your microbe #2 bed which would mean that that too will grow larger quickly. Because you had those sick fish in there, not having fish in the tank for the next couple of weeks will help ensure no hosts available if there are worm eggs hatching in there.

Also, did you contact your Dr about the fish TB?

 

[nlifs]

Hi Andy!

1) Thanks for the suggestions re. choosing fish. I've made a note of that for the next time we go to the LFS

2) I don't have ready access to ammonium chloride and, as mentioned, I've already added a large-ish 'pinch' of fish food (flakes) to provide some ammonia to keep bacteria #1 happy ...

3) nitrates were zero originally when I started the tank so it's not coming from the water. I thought it might be a false positive from the high nitrites but perhaps bacteria #2 has indeed started growing?

4) as to the water change, I'm happy not to do one until the cycle is complete, but I thought I read somewhere that high nitrites might cause the cycle to stall?

5) I am certainly trying to get the cycle completed before adding fish but, as mentioned, I don't have alot of options of going to buy fish and this Sunday is one day that I'll be able to go, so trying to get as quickly through the cycle by Sunday as possible. Might be a little while before I can next get to the LFS (I don't want to return to the first place I went to that had the sick fish).

6) in view of the above, what, if anything, can I reasonably do to get the cycle moving faster? Do you agree with continuing to add Stability? What about adding the TSS+? Alternatively, would you strongly recommend to not rush the cycle and wait until 1.5-2 weeks before getting new fish?

7) difficult to get an actual appointment with local Dr. (and I had disposed of the fish before I saw your message). I put some polysporin on the skin break with a bandage just in case and will be monitoring closely (and wearing gloves from now on)!

Thanks again for always taking the time to answer questions!

 

[nlifs]

As a follow-up, if you do indeed strongly recommend not adding fish yet, what about getting some plants on Sunday and waiting another week or so before getting fish?

 

[Andy Sager]

I can not stress this enough: The key to successful aquariums is PATIENCE.

Having a dedicated pair of gloves for the aquarium is a good move. Make sure you keep them dedicated ONLY for aquarium use.

That sucks about the Dr but that's medicine in today's world I guess. ( Personally, I have very little use for Drs. ) I like to treat all cuts first with Hydrogen Peroxide because you can see the sizzling so you know it's killing something. Then I use an antibiotic cream to keep anything from developing.


High nitrites: Truthfully, I see a lot of comments on this causing the cycle to stall but I can't find any scientific papers that make this claim. I've not known this to be true and since I also see the "too high" number range from 3 ppm to 10 ppm being the point of stalling, I have a sneaky suspicion that it's more myth than fact. I do know scientific papers confirm that a low Ph will stall the cycle because microbe #1 does not live well in low Ph water. If someone reading this can show me a scientific paper on this "stalling", I'd be happy to read it. If you see your nitrites going higher than 10 PPM , do a water change.

Nitrates: I have a message into API to confirm that the nitrate kit reads nitrites. At this point, I do not know that to be true. ( Just sayin' )

Ammonia source: Flake food is actually the worst thing to use for ammonia but if that's all you got, it will have to suffice. Make sure your ammonia level does not go above 10 PPM or if it does, do a water change (even tho it's reported to not stall the cycling process. ) Next time you go grocery shopping, add some ammonia to the list. Just make sure it has no additives or scents. Get the smallest bottle as you shouldn't need to use it for too much longer.

It sounds like the stability and the other product are not doing their job so I wouldn't continue with them. In truth, the only bacteria in a bottle product I have found to work over the years is fritzyme #7. I have not used any other product since the 1990s so anything that has come out since then, I have no experience with so I can't say they work or not. I KNOW #7 works. The only key to it is not getting bottles that have been exposed to excessive heat or freezing temps.

Fish/ Plants: in my opinion, NOPE! Let the tank cycle then you can add live things to it. If that means waiting an extra week, so be it. If the kids need to see something new in the tank, get plastic plants. They should have no effect on the water quality. What you can do is get live plants and keep them in a separate container so that you can see if there are any snails or worms or thingies that can come in on live plants. You want to get rid of any of those. This way when the tank does eventually cycle, you can be adding clean plants. Make sure they have enough lighting while they are not in the tank.

I think that covers everything.

 

[nlifs]

Update

Hello again!

I was able to get some Tim's Ammonium, as well as a bottle of Fritzzyme 7.

Long story short, the nitrites barely seem like they're going down. I know you mentioned not to do water changes but the nitrites were so high that I couldn't read them properly, making it difficult to dose ammonia, etc. After two 60-75% changes yesterday (no gravel vacuuming), I think (?) I may have gotten them down to 2 ppm (see photo). Ammonia was about 0.25 after the water changes but is now back to zero.

I would like to add the Fritzzyme if possible ...

What should I do now?

1) more water changes to get nitrites down to a level that I can more accurately measure?
2) add Fritzzyme add some more ammonia (e.g. to 1 ppm)
3) leave things as-is and wait/hope for nitrite to go down and only add Fritzzyme/ammonia when nitrites get to 0?

I am somewhat concerned about leaving the bacteria without ammonia for too long ...

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!!

 

[Andy Sager]

Add the #7. Add enough ammonia to bring it to 1 ppm and see how long it takes to go back to 0 with the #7 in there.

 

[nlifs]

Thanks Andy!

And just ignore the high nitrites? I read somewhere that high nitrites may inhibit bacterial growth.

Thanks again.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks Andy!

And just ignore the high nitrites? I read somewhere that high nitrites may inhibit bacterial growth.

Thanks again.

I think I addressed this already? There's no scientific papers I've found that confirm that happens. With the #7 in there, the nitrite should start coming down in a few days.

 

[nlifs]

Hello again!

Yes, you did address the high nitrites earlier!

My follow up was in the context of adding BB ... wasn't sure if the high nitrites were a contraindication to that. Greatly appreciate the clarification!

As a further follow-up, I dosed to approximately 1 ppm Ammonia and added the Fritzzyme 7. Less than 12 hours later, Ammonia is all gone, but Nitrites are still high.

Should I continue dosing Ammonia (if so, how much) or do nothing until Nitrites drop to zero? If the latter, what if it takes several days or more? Any risk of the ammonia-consuming bacteria dying off without a food source?

Thanks as usual!

 

[Andy Sager]

Hello again!

Yes, you did address the high nitrites earlier!

My follow up was in the context of adding BB ... wasn't sure if the high nitrites were a contraindication to that. Greatly appreciate the clarification!

As a further follow-up, I dosed to approximately 1 ppm Ammonia and added the Fritzzyme 7. Less than 12 hours later, Ammonia is all gone, but Nitrites are still high.

Should I continue dosing Ammonia (if so, how much) or do nothing until Nitrites drop to zero? If the latter, what if it takes several days or more? Any risk of the ammonia-consuming bacteria dying off without a food source?

Thanks as usual!

Okay, so you have a healthy microbe #1 bed. That's good.
It's going to take a few days to a week+ ( vs a month +) for the nitrites to come down to 0 but you should see them falling starting at 48 hours +/-. For now what you can do is add ammonia every 3rd day to a 1 ppm level. You don't want to add too much because all that is doing is creating more nitrites while feeding microbe #1. If you see the ammonia not returning to 0 within 24 hours, add the ammonia more often ( start with every 2nd day).

 

[nlifs]

Update redux

Hello again,

So it's been about 48 hours since I dosed the ammonia. Checked nitrite levels after 24 hours and seemed pretty much the same as it was before ... checked again now and it does look like they dropped somewhat but the colour is still pink/fuscia (likely off the API scale) ... hopefully the fact that it's a bit lighter means that the bacteria (#2) are starting to get established.

Just to confirm, do I still add more ammonia tomorrow (72 hours since last dose), even if I can't get a clear nitrite reading?

 

[Andy Sager]

Hello again,

So it's been about 48 hours since I dosed the ammonia. Checked nitrite levels after 24 hours and seemed pretty much the same as it was before ... checked again now and it does look like they dropped somewhat but the colour is still pink/fuscia (likely off the API scale) ... hopefully the fact that it's a bit lighter means that the bacteria (#2) are starting to get established.

Just to confirm, do I still add more ammonia tomorrow (72 hours since last dose), even if I can't get a clear nitrite reading?

Yes, you can add the 1 ppm of ammonia to keep #1 going while #2 establishes. Be prepared to add livestock when the ammonia and nitrite both reach 0 again but make sure your nitrates aren't too high or else do a water change to reduce them then add your livestock. If you cannot add livestock within the 3 days of the tank cycling, continue to add the ammonia at the 1 ppm rate at the 2- 3 day rate until you are ready to add livestock. Remember, since you reduced the amount of ammonia you are adding, do not go heavy with the first livestock after the tank has finished cycling. The biological bed ( microbes #1 & #2 ) grows and shrinks based on the amount of ammonia available at the time. It's always better to add livestock slowly in the beginning than overloading the system. Always check your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and do water changes before adding new stock.

 

[nlifs]

Another day, another update!

I added the Fritz 7 almost exactly a week ago ... as of today, approx. 1 ppm of Ammonia is gone within less than 12 hours, but nitrites are still 'stuck' at about 5 ppm (goes up a bit after dosing ammonia but doesn't seem to drop significantly below 5 during the 2 days between ammonia). This pattern (0 ammonia and about 5 nitrites) has been present for about two weeks now ...

Question for today - I may be passing by my LFS later today. Should I get another bottle of Fritz 7 and, if nothing has changed in the next couple of days, add the Fritz the next time I dose Ammonia (Wed. night)?

I know this process requires patience, but I'm trying to balance that with my family asking "when are the fish coming" and making fun of my new hobby of raising bacteria instead of fish ...

Advice, as always, is greatly appreciated!

 

[Aiken Drum]

My opinion would be if a product doesn't work, there is no point continually adding more. Especially if you are buying from the same place. It either works or it doesnt.

Adding more wont hurt anything though if your wallet can take it.

As to how long things will take. I can see it easily being another 4 to 6 weeks. Or things could quickly progress and you will done in a few more days.

 

[nlifs]

Thanks very much for the reply!

You make a good point. Perhaps, if I go ahead, I should try a different brand ... some folks seem to have had success with the Tetra product (SafeStart plus).

I had a related thought that I was hoping to get some feedback on ...

Clearly, my tank has a fairly well-established bacteria bed for the ammonia-consuming bacteria (BB #1), given that the ammonia I'm dosing (albeit not a huge amount) is gone in less than 12 hours. What's missing is the nitrite-consuming stuff (BB #2), so here's what I was thinking ...

Given that these bottled bacteria products claim to provide populations of both BB #1 and #2, what if I were to add them without adding any source of ammonia. There are plenty of nitrites in my tank to go around but no ammonia ... would this provide BB #2 a leg up to increase its population vs. BB #1?? If so, I wouldn't wait until my next ammonia dose ...

What do you think?

 

[Aiken Drum]

Im not so much talking about a different brand, but a different retailer. These are live products, and if not stored and transported in temperature controlled conditions then they just die off. If the product you bought didn't work there is no reason to presume that a different brand, sold by the same store hasnt been subjected to the same conditions.

Tetra safestart is the original product. Its creator Dr Tim Hovanec is credited with first discovering the bacteria that are responsible for the nitrogen cycle. He is now behind his own product, Dr Tims One and Only. These 2 products are essentally identical to each other and both have good reputations. But, recent research show that the microbes actually present in actual established aquariums are rarely the ones everyone thought was doing the work, which is why a lot of these products dont really work very well. All the original research was based on water/ sewage treatment, and its only in the last few years that research has been done on established aquariums.

I dont really see any benefit from your plan of not dosing ammonia. The only + would be seeing how long it takes for the nitrite to drop off to zero without it being reintroduced by the addition of new ammonia. Its not going to increase how quickly the nitrite to nitrate stage progresses.

From my experience the ammonia to nitrite stage typically takes a couple of weeks, and the nitrite to nitrate stage takes, say 4 weeks. The best way to speed things up is to use a little filter media from an established filter to get things going. I think you are about 2 or 3 weeks into that timescale.

 

[nlifs]

Hello again!

Thanks for the clarification.

OK, I probably misunderstood but I thought that, if there's zero ammonia in the tank but plenty of nitrites, that would provide "food" for the nitrite-nitrate bacteria (but not for the ammonia-nitrite bacteria, which I seem to already have plenty of) from the bottled bac and hopefully cause them to propagate faster and, since they are the ones missing from the tank right now, would hopefully cycle the tank more quickly.

In other words, nitrites should go to zero sooner and, the next time I dose ammonia, the entire process would be quicker because of the larger population of nitrite-nitrate bacteria.

Is there a flaw in that logic?

 

[Aiken Drum]

Yes. Nitrite will provide food for the nitrite to nitrate microbes. But removing ammonia and starving the ammonia to nitrite microbes isnt going speed up the growth of nitrite to nitrate microbes. They are independant of each other except that you need to ammonia to nitrite stage to develop first so there is a food source for the nitrite to nitrate stage microbes.

Back to my previous post about the microbes actually found in established aquariums, the traditional presumption of 2 stages of the nitrogen cycle (ammonia to nitrite to nitrate) is only partially true, and a lot of the work is actually done by ammonia to nitrate microbes, missing the nitrite stage entirely. Lots of microbes, some of them not bacteria, doing things nobody expected. An established aquarium isnt the same as a newly set up aquarium. And neither are sewage plants.

 

[nlifs]

Got it!

I thought I read somewhere that the two species were somehow competitive with one another and that if one grows faster than the other would be inhibited ...

I take it from your reply that this isn't the case.