dead plants and high nitrates?

[fastfly48]

Hi all, and everyone else...

Not long ago my wisteria (ALL OF IT) died
Since then I've notieced that things just arn't right, things arn't growing like they used to. The wisteria made of the main bulk of my plants. With it gone, I now have a gaping space in the tank

However, I've been testing my water and have noticed that the nitrates have sky rocketed. The logical reason for this would be because there arn't as many plants to suck it up. Is this logic right in this case?
So I'm gussing/hoping getting some more plants would help reduce these high nitrates? If so, then I'll go out and get some tmoro...prob wisteria.

Also, the fish are fine, can't seem to be able to kill the little buggers But the plants are much touchier. Though, I only have java fern, java moss, anubis nana and a tiny bit of val (the wisteria died ).
Could these high nitrates (40-60s) be having negative affects on these plants?? I didn't think they could...

Becasue they all seem to have stopped growth, with the val starting to wilt, the java ferns leaves browing, and the nanas leaves curling.
Eek! it's falling apart!

temp is a steady 26*C
CO2 is around 20 (a bit low, but meh)
Ammonia and nitrite are zero
Nitrate is BIG, hard to tell how high with the colour, I think it's around 60ppm though...
Tanks is 20g.
Fish? Um...
3 plecos (largest being only about an inch), 4 corys, 3 harlequin, 12 neons, 4 rosy/cherry (not sure they are the prettyones haha um, males are red, females gold) oh and some random glass shrimp
So, that explains the nitrate factor hu?
Hope you can help
cheers.
Ry.

 

[7Enigma]

High nitrAtes (yours are not bad at all if you had no fish present) will not cause plants to stop growing or die. Sounds to me like you have a deficiency problem. I would correct it ASAP with a large PWC and dosing ferts to an appropriate level. And check for a dead fish/shrimp, as that is normally the cause for skyrocketing levels of nitrAtes (though your idea of less plants is also a logical conclusion).

We can rule out nitrogen as a deficiency so it comes down to what if any CO2 are you injecting (this will definately stunt growth if not enough is present), how hard is your water (GH), are you dosing potassium, traces (with iron), phosphate?

Do you have any test kits to measure the important levels (other than nitrAte)? Specifically I'd be interested in knowing your GH and phosphate levels (and CO2 if applicable).

All of the plants you have in the tank are mostly slow growers that will slowly show deficiency symptoms. In your case the wisteria was the indicator plant, when that goes downhill, you need to find and fix the problem quickly or your other plants will also suffer (as they seem to be now). Before getting more wisteria you need to either find the problem, or begin low level dosing (EI is good for this) of all of the important nutrients to make sure you are not bottoming out on a nutrient.

My gut tells me its a potassium deficiency, since with your bioload you are probably getting ample levels of traces, and probably phosphates as well. Unless your water is very soft you also probably have adquate amounts of calcium and magnesium. Lack of CO2 will only cause stunted growth and potential algae outbreaks, but will NOT show up as a deficiency (the plants will just not grow further or be able to repair damage effectively).

So bottom line, test everything you have a kit for and report back, do a large PWC (this will also help in lowering nitrAte levels to more suitable fish conditions), dose potassium, and maybe get a small wisteria plant to use as an indicator of nutrient deficiency.

HTH,

justin

 

[fastfly48]

Champ. thanks alot justin

The only thing i can test for but haven't is my Kh. With that and Ph i can firgure out exactly my CO2. But I'm going to be doing a big water change tmoro, so testing the Kh now will be pretty useless.
Naturally my Kh is very low 2-3, making affective CO2 injection tricky, though I have been dosing baking power with my water changes, to try and help the CO2 factor without having a super low Ph.

I think I've just gotten slack with water changes, with uni in full swing I'm not changing water anywhere near as often as i used to.
I don't dose anything, I was hoping CO2 injection and a big biolaod would come close to covering all the nutritional needs of the "easy" plants i keep...
But I think I'll get an all rounder fert tmoro, SOooo expensive but :s

i'll get back to you tmoro, with a fresh update after my water change.
thanks again.
Ry.

 

[7Enigma]

Make sure your using baking SODA and not baking powder, they are 2 completely different chemicals....

And like I said, I doubt you would need anything but potassium right now. Try to find a form that doesn't add to your nitrAte levels (ie potassium nitrAte would not be a good idea), such as potassium sulfate.

What is your light level on your tank?

 

[fastfly48]

hi

Just got back fomr my lfs...

Got some Flourish Potassium (in the bottle, liquid form). I can't see anyhting saying it has nitrate in it.

AH! thanks MAJORLY for pointing out the baking sode/baking powder thing!
I've been using baking POWDER! ARrrrrrr :s
What do you think that's been doing?
voops I was adding quite a bit to, till the water was cloudy...but it always clears up after a day. eek. Funny, it did seem to raise the Kh though...
I'll grab some baking SODA when i can.

I've got two 20watts tube lights over my 20gallons..ie. 2 watts per gallon, though it doesn't seem to be that bright. I've checked the lights though, and they're all working fine.

I'm just about to do a 50% ,or so, water change. So I'll give you my water test results after the water change. Um, those will include, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, Ph, Kh and CO2...I don't have kits for anything else.

Thanks again
Ry.

 

[7Enigma]

hi

Just got back fomr my lfs...

Got some Flourish Potassium (in the bottle, liquid form). I can't see anyhting saying it has nitrate in it.

AH! thanks MAJORLY for pointing out the baking sode/baking powder thing!
I've been using baking POWDER! ARrrrrrr :s
What do you think that's been doing?
voops I was adding quite a bit to, till the water was cloudy...but it always clears up after a day. eek. Funny, it did seem to raise the Kh though...
I'll grab some baking SODA when i can.

I've got two 20watts tube lights over my 20gallons..ie. 2 watts per gallon, though it doesn't seem to be that bright. I've checked the lights though, and they're all working fine.

I'm just about to do a 50% ,or so, water change. So I'll give you my water test results after the water change. Um, those will include, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, Ph, Kh and CO2...I don't have kits for anything else.

Thanks again
Ry.

I think that baking powder could very well be causing problems with your plants. Have a read:

http://home.howstuffworks.com/question57.htm

The only other test you should really have is a phosphate one. It is nice to know your levels are not extremely high (with low nitrAte), or in line if you do (to prevent green spot algae).

 

[Purrbox]

Flourish Potassium will contain mainly Potassium while Flourish Nitrogen contains mainly Nitrates with some Potassium. If you're looking to just dose Potassium, then you bought the correct product.

 

[fastfly48]

Thanks for the that purrbox

Ok, water change is done, I let it settle for a day before i tested the water. Here are the results...
Ammonia: o
Nitrite: o
Nitrate: about 15ppm, I'm sure that will be rising quickly though...
Ph: 6.4
Kh: about 50-60ppm
CO2: around 35

Looks good eh?
I bought i stem of wisteria from the shop too. It's stettled in really quick and is looking good, spreading it's leaves out (ie, not all bunched up or curled).

I dosed the pottasium with the water change too. No signs yet (as expected) but i think that the potassium def. was spot on, thanks Justin

Algae is low to non-existant, so I'm guessing all is quiet on the phosphate front

Comments appreciated
Many thanks
Ryland

 

[fastfly48]

hello?...

ok up-date...

I't s getting worse! HELP!

How long does it take for the plants to recover from a deficiency? Because it is getting worse...or is it just taking awhile for the potassium to get back up and going?

I'm Killing java fern, something is really wrong! haha
Help

 

[Purrbox]

Could you either describe the symptoms that the plants are displaying as the die or provide some pictures? This would be a great help in trying to determine what exactly is wrong. It would also be helpful if you could get you water tested for Phosphates.

 

[fastfly48]

description? sure.

It's only effecting the java fern leaves so i'll talk about that.
It starts as a small dark brownish patch, and expands. Then it starts falling apart (the whole leaf) and losing all it's strength...waffer like.
So the patch expands and then falls apart, hey presto no more leaf :s
The rest of the leaf is often fine, with just sections having the brown patch...but the patch spreads. The patches boarders are clear cut. Perhaps i could just cut the patches off?
I don't have a phosphate test kit..next time im in the shop I'm get them to test it for me.

The wisteria that i put in after the potassium doing is fine though, that makes me think that things are recovering and not going down hill...

comments appriciated
cheers
Ry.

 

[fastfly48]

hi, another up-date...

Just testing levels again
Ph is 6.4 and Kh is 50ppm
therefore Co2 is 33.4
Perfect.

Everyhting else is fine. still need to test phosphates.

Though, I just noticed something that could give us a clue as to why my java fern is die'n!

A leaf of java fern hangs over the top of my pressurized Cos diffuser. This leaf, just the part that's being hit by the bubbles has deteriorated. the rest of the plnt is relatively ok, but this part is really bad...now almost falling off, skeletal.

Could this tell us that it's the Co2 that's in the bad? I thought Java fern would be fine with Co2 levels of 33.4ppm :s Perhaps not??
I think I'm just going to switch the Co2 off now.

Please let me know what you think

Ry.

 

[Purrbox]

My guess is that the java fern is burning through nutrients faster than they are available due to higher exposure to CO2, this then leads to a localized defficiency. A way to test this would be to move the Java Fern out of the direct flow of the CO2 and see if it perks up. Might also mean that it would help to improve the flow through the tank to keep the nutrients more evenly mixed.

 

[fastfly48]

update

Java fern is still dying HELP
Leaves are turning brown, brown colour spreads, and finally falls apart, normally with only the viens left attached to the roots swaying in the water. I can't find any fungal infections or creatures on the leaves...

My tank basically only has java fern, a little bit of java moss (fine) and one stem of wisteria. I put the wisteria in after the old lots died randomly. This one stem of wisteria is doing super, but the java fern is still deteriorating.
Here's the timeline...
Massive hedge of wisteria in tank sudenly dies, went limp, lost colour, very soft, litterally fell apart, almost disintergrated.
After this, the Java fern started developing these brown patches...which have been wreaking havok and still are...very few healthy java fern leaves are left.
This suggests that they (wisteria and java fern) had some kind of balance i guess...

I put this one stem of wisteria in as the java fern was deteriorating, but the wisteria is fine and healthy, suggesting that what ever is wrong is only affecting the java fern...:s


Iron (as of two minutes ago) is 0.1
Phosphate...or phospherous or whateve rit's called is 2 (high apparently)
Ammonia and nitrite are both 0
Nitrate: about 30 though not 100% sure...
C02: about 35ppm
Ph: 6.4
Kh: abuot 50ppm (2.8 degrees)
Temp: steady 26*C

I have no idea what the problem is. No-one at the aquarium store know what it could be either...i even showed them one of the leaves.
Any ideas at all? I've been doising potassium...but i think that's wrong and that i should stop...
I haven't been doising anyhting else.
Did a big (abomut 50%) water change last week, perhaps that did something?? But iv'e done water changes of that size before and nothing happened...

Any thoughts/comments would be highly appreciated
Thanks in advance
Ry.

 

[Purrbox]

Something that I don't thing has been addressed is your testkits. What brand and type of kits are you using?

I still think that you are dealing with nutrient deficiencies. Mostly likely Phosphates, since you don't have a test kit for it and your Nitrates sky rocketed. Since you have a reasonably good amount of light and pressurized CO2, I would recommend trying EI dosing. This will ensure that you have sufficient levels of all nutrients and you won't need to worry about testing everything if you don't want to.

 

[fastfly48]

i agree it's a deficiency.
Though i highly doubt it's phosphate considering it's at 2 (like i said last post).
Can i ask a dumb question? What's EI dosing? is that dosing everything together?

My tests for ph, nitrate, nitrite and ammonia are: aquarium pharmaceuticals, inc.
Kh is aquasonic.
The iron and phosphate i had done at the shop yesterday, not sure what brand.

does that help?
cheers.
Ry.

 

[Purrbox]

EI is Estimative Index, and is a method of dosing that ensures that there is never any deficiency.

The kits that you listed should be reasonably good as long as they are all liquid test kits. These are hobbiest grade kits, so it is possible that they could be off if you haven't calibrated them using a reference solution.

I missed the 2ppm Phosphate and had just seen that you had mentioned earlier that you didn't have a Phosphate Test Kit. If your results are accurate, then you should have sufficient Nitrates and Phosphates, which leaves Potassium as the final macro nutrient you might be short on. How much and how often are you dosing it?

 

[fastfly48]

I'm dosing 3 mLs of phosphate about every second day.

Directions say to dose 5mL for every 30 gallons, and to repeat 2-3 times a week.
My tank is 20 gallons to im using 3mL, and im doisng around 3-4 times a week.

All of the deficiency signs are present, yellowing in older leaces, browning, death and weak stems and roots. But i can't seen any improvements. Just about all of the java fern is now dead. THis dosinf doesn't seem to have helped at all.

Also, that one stem of wisteria i talked about is looking like it's starting to go down hill too! It started fine, but i've noticed that the apical meristem region at the top of the plant has cease producing new leaves. Normally the tops of my wisateria are the bushiest.

I also bought some new stems of wisteria from the shop. They'e looknig fine...but i only put them in a few days ago.

All finsh are fine.

EI looks like alot of work and money, both of which i don't have ample amounts of.
This is frusterating because everything has been going so great for so long, i really don't know what went so wrong as to kill all of my plants (java moss howver is still alive :s)...i don't understand how things went so wrong so fast. I've been testing the water alot and can't find anything wrong.
So i don't know what i did wrong OR how to fix it :s

Any help is muchly appreciated
Thanks Purrbox
cheers
Ry.

(edit)

perhaps i have too many fish in my tank? perhaps the bioload is too heavy?
In my 20 gallon tank i have...
3 plecos
4 corys
numerous (about 10 i think) glass shrimp
12 neon tetras
4 cherry barbs
3 harlequin

I know that's too much, but how much over is it? And could this harm the plants?
I just tested for nitrate and found it to be...well...it's hard to read...anywhere between 30 and 100 :s it all depend on the light on it, the colour changes with the light. Held against the white paper it looks to be 100, but held just off the white paper it looks more like 30 :s ah but held up to the light from th ewindow it looks 20-ish.
Problem is, once your nitrates are over 20, the colour difference (on the indicator card that you compare you sample with) is very subtle, making it VERY hard to figure out what your levels actually are, there is very little difference in the colour change between 20 and 160 :s

With so few healthy plants and such a heavy bioload, could the nitrates be harming the plants? I was thinking of giving some of my fish back to the shop, probably the harlequins and/or the corys.
Would taking some fish out be a good idea?

 

[Purrbox]

Well, the fact that you are following the dosing recommended on the bottle could be part of the problem. You're only dosing 0.3123ppm Phosphate per dose. The dosing on the Seachem bottles is geared for low light tanks. The saving grace is that you have such a high bioload that it's making up at least part of the difference on both the Phosphates and Nitrates.

You've got a large enough tank that it would be a really good idea to switch to dry ferts from Greg Watson when you current ferts run out. The initial expense will run you around $25 (half of which is shipping) but these will last a LOT longer than the Seachem Ferts. The bottles from the Seachem ferts make great mixing bottles for dry ferts though.

If you're dosing according to the instructions on the bottle for Flourish Potassium, that could be why you're still having problems. You'll need to be dosing about 5-10ml for (3.011-6.022ppm) three times a week. Once this is upped you should see a higher uptake on the Nitrates and Phosphates (which should start to come down a little) and your plants should start to improve. Generally it'll take about 1 week to see improvement with the plants, and a second for them to start looking good. If you're still having problems then we need to keep troubleshooting.

 

[fastfly48]

AAAAAAAArrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I'm SICK of this!
It was all perfect (all that time ago), everything was fine forever, all the time.
Now nothing will grow and everything is dying (oh except the fish)!
What the hell could have gone soooo wrong!? It's a waste of money, time and effort. I don't need this ontop of everything else at the moment.
It's hopeless, no-one can help, and no-one knows what's wrong. What a horrible hobby.

No plants in my tank are living well. i have ONE leaf of Java fern left, the leaf right at the outlet of the filter.
That one stem of wisteria is now starting to melt away, going floppy! ARrrrr, this points to iron!? ARRRR
I've been doing potassium...but it hasn't done anything!
I never used to have to dose anything! Why should i have to keep having to dose now?...other than to fix the problem and get things back of their feet?

I've also noticed one of my corys is constantly coming up to the surface, gulping at the surface...but the other fish are fine.
could turing off the CO2 help things?
I'm depressed! help. meh, but what can you say to this? nothing hey...pointless post really...just had to vent...ARrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr