greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
great price BASSNMAN.. 
Discus Discussion
- Thread starter BrianNY
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an interest in aquariums or fish keeping!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
BrianNY.. have you ever used a automated pwc system or designed one? Im wondering if you have ever had a fishroom to work with.. I think this is relevant to the topic...
Every automated pwc system I've seen has been home grown. I haven't used one because it's an expense that I just can't afford now.
As far as Discus in the community tank........... Many species do very well with discus. I'll mention again that I'm talking adult discus, not juveniles. In my planted 125, I keep a school of black neons, assorted dwarf cichlids, clown loaches and dwarf albino plecos. I know there are many who keep angels with discus. IMO it's not a great mix. Discus tend to be well mannered eaters and angels are a bit piggy. I think there's a tendancy to overfeed when these two are mixed but that's JMO.
Bad news on BrianNY discus front. I'm currently battling yet another bout of discus plague. I should have known better. I bought 2 discus from a local distributer. I knew they were imported from Asia. He QTd them for two and half months. Now all my discus (every tank downstairs), has the plague. I'm currently scrambing to find enough furazon green to treat 100s of gallons.
As far as Discus in the community tank........... Many species do very well with discus. I'll mention again that I'm talking adult discus, not juveniles. In my planted 125, I keep a school of black neons, assorted dwarf cichlids, clown loaches and dwarf albino plecos. I know there are many who keep angels with discus. IMO it's not a great mix. Discus tend to be well mannered eaters and angels are a bit piggy. I think there's a tendancy to overfeed when these two are mixed but that's JMO.
Bad news on BrianNY discus front. I'm currently battling yet another bout of discus plague. I should have known better.
I bought 2 discus from a local distributer. I knew they were imported from Asia. He QTd them for two and half months. Now all my discus (every tank downstairs), has the plague. I'm currently scrambing to find enough furazon green to treat 100s of gallons.mattrox
Aquarium Advice Addict
Wow, that's not good Brian. I hope they make it through and fully recover. I hate battling disease. Especially with Discus.
Fluff
Aquarium Advice Addict
Sorry to hear that Brian. Hope they all recover.
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
thats horrible! wish there was something I could do to help.. hope things turn out alright.. 8O
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
hay BrianNY, or anyone else that might know something about this subject.. I was wondering if there was a good reference to use out there to diagnose this particular illness, or other illnesses, in discus with a microscope and a swab from the fish??
Now that I'm going through my 2nd bout of this in a year, I think I know as much about the discus plague as anyone. Bold statement!!!
The disease first appeared in 1986 and devestated the North American discus population. It's believed to be viral although the virus has never been isolated. It progresses rapidly and death usually occurs within 5 days from secondary bacterial infections. The virus itself isn't fatal but the fish become so stressed and lethargic that other infections take over.
For this reason I reduce the stress level by increasing water changes, and treat with salt and an anti bacterial (such as Furazone Green).
The disease first appeared in 1986 and devestated the North American discus population. It's believed to be viral although the virus has never been isolated. It progresses rapidly and death usually occurs within 5 days from secondary bacterial infections. The virus itself isn't fatal but the fish become so stressed and lethargic that other infections take over.
For this reason I reduce the stress level by increasing water changes, and treat with salt and an anti bacterial (such as Furazone Green).
Attachments
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
That was a bold statement!! but after having to deal with it that much I could see were your coming from! if the illness is viral then Im assuming that the only thing that will ever get rid of it would be a vaccination, that of course does not exist from the lack of isolation of the virus. I was just wondering if anyone knew about, or had some experience, using a microscope and reference manual to diagnose illness.. that would assume that there is a picture of the parasite or bacteria to be published.
how long does it take for your fish to recover from this?
is that a current picture of one of your fish or is that from a previous outbreak?
can this be prevented by isolating new fish for the period it would normally take for fish to recover from this illness or longer?
but after having to deal with it that much I could see were your coming from! if the illness is viral then Im assuming that the only thing that will ever get rid of it would be a vaccination, that of course does not exist from the lack of isolation of the virus. I was just wondering if anyone knew about, or had some experience, using a microscope and reference manual to diagnose illness.. that would assume that there is a picture of the parasite or bacteria to be published. how long does it take for your fish to recover from this?
is that a current picture of one of your fish or is that from a previous outbreak?
can this be prevented by isolating new fish for the period it would normally take for fish to recover from this illness or longer?
A microscope is a useful in diagnosing many ailments. Unfortunately it usually means sacrificing a fish to obtain a specimen.
The thing about viruses is that they usually have to run their course. We can't even cure many viruses in people (HIV,herpes), let alone fish. When I had my first bout, I sent a few live discus to Mississippi State Univ for an in depth analysis. They are best source of reference for FW fish diseases because the state funds research due to the catfish industry there. They don't have the resources to isolate this virus.
That picture was from a year ago greenmagi. The quality stunk so I'll post another one.
The thing about viruses is that they usually have to run their course. We can't even cure many viruses in people (HIV,herpes), let alone fish. When I had my first bout, I sent a few live discus to Mississippi State Univ for an in depth analysis. They are best source of reference for FW fish diseases because the state funds research due to the catfish industry there. They don't have the resources to isolate this virus.
That picture was from a year ago greenmagi. The quality stunk so I'll post another one.
Attachments
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
I was talking about virus's in general. polio comes to mind.. Im sure the time, energy and money have never been dumped into finding a vaccine for fish.
The microscope method usually needs an autopsy type approach? blood or liver samples or something to that degree.. Im just curious
this virus looks horrible.. the contamination come from using the same equipment for water changes or something? just curious again.. I was thinking you might have had a central filtration system but that was out when you posted your pictures..
And I was wondering about isolating your new fish for a long enough period of time that the virus would normally run its course and if that would help in preventing an outbreak.. Im assuming that it would have to show up in your new fish to actually start this isolation wich would make the isolation almost pointless when it comes to prevention.. sorry if that was a silly question..
the mississippi university information is nice to know by the way..
thanks for all the information.. it seems that ive taken over asking questions on this thread.. I hope this is ok.. I just have alot of questions.. 8O
The microscope method usually needs an autopsy type approach? blood or liver samples or something to that degree.. Im just curious
this virus looks horrible.. the contamination come from using the same equipment for water changes or something? just curious again.. I was thinking you might have had a central filtration system but that was out when you posted your pictures..
And I was wondering about isolating your new fish for a long enough period of time that the virus would normally run its course and if that would help in preventing an outbreak.. Im assuming that it would have to show up in your new fish to actually start this isolation wich would make the isolation almost pointless when it comes to prevention.. sorry if that was a silly question..
the mississippi university information is nice to know by the way..
thanks for all the information.. it seems that ive taken over asking questions on this thread.. I hope this is ok.. I just have alot of questions.. 8O
TankGirl
Aquarium Advice Addict
I am so sorry to hear about this development, Brian.
Let me say, having been to Brian's house and seen his tanks, and knowing what he and his wife go through to maintain these tanks, I am confident that he took every reasonable precaution against this plague. I remember the last bout and it was not a fun time, so "once bitten, twice shy" applies here, no doubt.
My husband has been after me for years to keep discus and I know one day I will, but for now I'll just lurk and pay attention to the threads regarding them, and defer to Brian's expertise!
greenmagi, you just keep the questions coming, because as members read through the threads they'll pick this one up and even if they don't post, they'll benefit from the information.
Let me say, having been to Brian's house and seen his tanks, and knowing what he and his wife go through to maintain these tanks, I am confident that he took every reasonable precaution against this plague. I remember the last bout and it was not a fun time, so "once bitten, twice shy" applies here, no doubt.
My husband has been after me for years to keep discus and I know one day I will, but for now I'll just lurk and pay attention to the threads regarding them, and defer to Brian's expertise!
greenmagi, you just keep the questions coming, because as members read through the threads they'll pick this one up and even if they don't post, they'll benefit from the information.
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
Thanks for the questions comment.. Ill do my best..LOL
I understand that Brian is going to be taking every precaution available to prevent bad things from happening, I can tell just from reading what he writes.. Im very impressed with his experience and knowledge, heck he tells stories in his answers..lol..
Im just thinking that thoughts not shared could never have any gain.. having a active mind can be annoying sometimes, but sometimes I stumble on a good one...LOL
The thought of keeping discus is all mine.. the snakeskins are amazing.. I dont think Ive seen anything that compares to the discus as far as looks are concerned.. Ive read alot about them there are just some things that dont seem to be discussed. It would help if I read something about fish in the past ten years..
Ill do my best..LOL I understand that Brian is going to be taking every precaution available to prevent bad things from happening, I can tell just from reading what he writes.. Im very impressed with his experience and knowledge, heck he tells stories in his answers..lol..
Im just thinking that thoughts not shared could never have any gain.. having a active mind can be annoying sometimes, but sometimes I stumble on a good one...LOL
The thought of keeping discus is all mine.. the snakeskins are amazing.. I dont think Ive seen anything that compares to the discus as far as looks are concerned.. Ive read alot about them there are just some things that dont seem to be discussed. It would help if I read something about fish in the past ten years..
Thank you very much for the kind comments Liz.
Actually, this outbreak is entirely my fault. The lesson I learned here is to never have blind faith or trust in what anyone tells me about discus. A bit more about the disease itself............
IMO no amount of QT can prevent this from occuring. It can be carried from tank to tank through moisture in the air. My first experience with this plague was from attending a discus worksho p in Atlanta. They held an auction to offset costs, and I dutifully bought discus to help them. It became apparent that anyone who did the same had introduced t his virus to their stock. Through posts on the discus forum I pieced together that some fish sold at this auction had recently been imported from Asia and that all the fish at the auction had been contaminated. Many very experienced discus keepers lost most if not all of their fish.
People were in such a state of panic over this that they began thowing meds indiscrimently at their discus. I believe this only hastened the mortalities. In addition, new arrivals often means overcrowding and pressure on the biofiltering which is extremely stressful to discus. At the time I only had some 20 fish, plenty of tanks, and plenty of seeded sponge filters (I was preparing for new arrivals). In addition my experience taught me never to medicate unless I was sure of what I was treating for, so I only treated with salt. The result was that I only lost 1 discus. Oh, the fish purchased in Atlanta all succumbed. That is....with the exception of 2 juvenile Mandarin Passions that had been imported from Asia.
Fast forward to this outbreak....... There's a member of my aquarium club that is a discus breeder. This is his sole source of income. I decided to visit him 2 weeks ago and was very impressed with his knowledge and hatchery. He had lots of fry at various stages and all of his tanks were healthy and active. There was a tank of yellow checkerboards at about 3 inches, perhaps a dozen of them. Spectacular discus and I wanted some.
He told me these fish had been imported from Asia and that he had them for more than 2 months. I reasoned that if there were to be a problem I would have seen it in his tanks. What I didn't consider is this.... If he had been importing Asian discus for some time, his stock had a built in resistance to the plague. Much like the measles, it might be a single occurance. My discus that survived the first plague seem to be fairng much better than discus that I've added since.
As of this writing, I still have not lost any discus. I'm doing 50% water changes twice a day and treating with high salt and a general (gram negative and positve), bacterial med. I've also lowered the temps a bit. The first fish to have come down with the plague seem to be over it. The ones that it took longer to hit seem to be suffering even more than the earlier contaminees. I don't have much hope for saving them all but I'm doing my best.
Actually, this outbreak is entirely my fault. The lesson I learned here is to never have blind faith or trust in what anyone tells me about discus. A bit more about the disease itself............
IMO no amount of QT can prevent this from occuring. It can be carried from tank to tank through moisture in the air. My first experience with this plague was from attending a discus worksho p in Atlanta. They held an auction to offset costs, and I dutifully bought discus to help them. It became apparent that anyone who did the same had introduced t his virus to their stock. Through posts on the discus forum I pieced together that some fish sold at this auction had recently been imported from Asia and that all the fish at the auction had been contaminated. Many very experienced discus keepers lost most if not all of their fish.
People were in such a state of panic over this that they began thowing meds indiscrimently at their discus. I believe this only hastened the mortalities. In addition, new arrivals often means overcrowding and pressure on the biofiltering which is extremely stressful to discus. At the time I only had some 20 fish, plenty of tanks, and plenty of seeded sponge filters (I was preparing for new arrivals). In addition my experience taught me never to medicate unless I was sure of what I was treating for, so I only treated with salt. The result was that I only lost 1 discus. Oh, the fish purchased in Atlanta all succumbed. That is....with the exception of 2 juvenile Mandarin Passions that had been imported from Asia.
Fast forward to this outbreak....... There's a member of my aquarium club that is a discus breeder. This is his sole source of income. I decided to visit him 2 weeks ago and was very impressed with his knowledge and hatchery. He had lots of fry at various stages and all of his tanks were healthy and active. There was a tank of yellow checkerboards at about 3 inches, perhaps a dozen of them. Spectacular discus and I wanted some.
He told me these fish had been imported from Asia and that he had them for more than 2 months. I reasoned that if there were to be a problem I would have seen it in his tanks. What I didn't consider is this.... If he had been importing Asian discus for some time, his stock had a built in resistance to the plague. Much like the measles, it might be a single occurance. My discus that survived the first plague seem to be fairng much better than discus that I've added since.As of this writing, I still have not lost any discus. I'm doing 50% water changes twice a day and treating with high salt and a general (gram negative and positve), bacterial med. I've also lowered the temps a bit. The first fish to have come down with the plague seem to be over it. The ones that it took longer to hit seem to be suffering even more than the earlier contaminees. I don't have much hope for saving them all but I'm doing my best.
mattrox
Aquarium Advice Addict
Far out Brian. That will have huge impacts on Discus in the US in general.... Those auctions usually have some exquisite specimens, the type that breeders lust after to introduce new blood to their stock. It will only be with great care and the attention like you are giving yours that quality stock will survive.
I guess that professional quality breeders will be able to give the attention that you do, but will it impact the fecundity of their brrod stock?
And you are so right... if a fish (not just discus) is sick..it is often better just to isolate and let the one die ( in my case) than medicate with a shotgun approch unless you KNOW what the problem is. The thing that LFS's don't tell you is that most meds stress fish at the doses required to fight disease.
I guess that professional quality breeders will be able to give the attention that you do, but will it impact the fecundity of their brrod stock?
And you are so right... if a fish (not just discus) is sick..it is often better just to isolate and let the one die ( in my case) than medicate with a shotgun approch unless you KNOW what the problem is. The thing that LFS's don't tell you is that most meds stress fish at the doses required to fight disease.
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
When you say that this is coming from imported from Asia discus.. I remember alot of discus coming from Singapore back when I was reading about them.. Is this the place that the plague came from? Or just Asia in general.. Actually, I remember reading about alot of different fish coming out of Singapore.
And Brian I really didnt want to blame you for your outbreak.. Your experience will help alot of people keeping this fish in my opinion. The thought of another breeders fish being more resistant to the plauge would be just that, a thought, if it were not for your recent experience.
And Brian I really didnt want to blame you for your outbreak..
Your experience will help alot of people keeping this fish in my opinion. The thought of another breeders fish being more resistant to the plauge would be just that, a thought, if it were not for your recent experience.
Jchillin
Aquarium Advice Addict
Brian, I've been lurking in this thread since it's inception and I thought it was a great idea then and it has peaked my curiousity even more.
For the record, I know Brian personally and I know what he (and his wife) have gone through in the few short months that I've known him.
Keep up the good work Brian...you know I'm with you all the way.
For the record, I know Brian personally and I know what he (and his wife) have gone through in the few short months that I've known him.
Keep up the good work Brian...you know I'm with you all the way.
Thanks for the comments Bill.
As for Asian imports.... There are a select few breeders that have had the ability to develop some spectacular strains. Bing Seto comes to mind. I think most imports are coming from Malaysia but certainly Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam are contributors.
As for the plague having an adverse on the No. American population, I'm not so sure. The discus is real success story in both its evolution and hardiness. I think more and more people will want to try their hand at keeping them. I can't think of a better show piece fish for a large FW aquarium.
Much has been written about the discus and some is either old hat, or not having enough meaningful content. The best book I've found is "Discus Health", by Dieter Untergasser. It's very expensive at $200 retail. I purchased a used copy from Amazon for $75.
As for Asian imports.... There are a select few breeders that have had the ability to develop some spectacular strains. Bing Seto comes to mind. I think most imports are coming from Malaysia but certainly Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam are contributors.
As for the plague having an adverse on the No. American population, I'm not so sure. The discus is real success story in both its evolution and hardiness. I think more and more people will want to try their hand at keeping them. I can't think of a better show piece fish for a large FW aquarium.
Much has been written about the discus and some is either old hat, or not having enough meaningful content. The best book I've found is "Discus Health", by Dieter Untergasser. It's very expensive at $200 retail. I purchased a used copy from Amazon for $75.
I want discus... one lfs sells malaysian imported ones for about $150-$200 each, the other sells locally bred ones for $45-$100 but reading through this I didn't realise it was so much work. I'm afraid discus is something I am not ready for in experience, money and tankspace.
Actually discus was what drew me to this aquarium hobby in the first place. I went to a friends house and in his bedroom was 2 tanks. 1 was about 100gal+ and the other was about 30g. I was struck by the 100gal one. Beautiful aquascaping.... heaps of driftwood and giant anubias. He had about 5 discus ranging from juveniles to adults, as well as 3 black ghost knife fish, pleco and various tetras. It was amazing. The whole time we stayed at their house at night for dinner I was glued to the tank (except for when eating). I made up my mind, I wanted discus. Surprisingly The next week i won $1500 for poetry comp. I spent 500 bought a small 24g tank after I realised I couldn't have discus. But I would expect to have some when I am all grown up
Actually discus was what drew me to this aquarium hobby in the first place. I went to a friends house and in his bedroom was 2 tanks. 1 was about 100gal+ and the other was about 30g. I was struck by the 100gal one. Beautiful aquascaping.... heaps of driftwood and giant anubias. He had about 5 discus ranging from juveniles to adults, as well as 3 black ghost knife fish, pleco and various tetras. It was amazing. The whole time we stayed at their house at night for dinner I was glued to the tank (except for when eating). I made up my mind, I wanted discus. Surprisingly The next week i won $1500 for poetry comp. I spent 500 bought a small 24g tank after I realised I couldn't have discus. But I would expect to have some when I am all grown up
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
I personally am at a crossroads in the selection of fish.. I would love to try my hand at discus, I would be much happier with a planted discus aquarium, ive been wanting a lake malawi setup, because of less compromise on the KH PH CO2 between the plants and the fish. I would be investing in different equipment, A RO/DI would be in the plans were it wouldnt.. I think I would still go all out on the CO2 and get a pressurized controlled system to keep a constant PH value.. I know you gave someone information on how to find local discus breeders to keep the livestock cost down Brian but Ill ask you in this thread, because I cant remember were to look and to try and get as much information in this thread as possible .
I am a little curious how you knew my name was Bill, did I PM you in the past or something? LOL or have you been talking to Jchillin? LOL too many Bills
. I am a little curious how you knew my name was Bill, did I PM you in the past or something? LOL or have you been talking to Jchillin? LOL too many Bills
Similar threads
