Discus Discussion

[greenmaji]

Healthy discus will pair off and spawn in almost any water considered potable. However the eggs will hatch only in very soft water. The higher the TDS in the water, the less likely that sperm can penetrate the egg. It's for this reason that RO units are employed by discus breeders.

Im only trying to verify what your saying here..
What your saying is.. As far as raising, growing out, pairing up, and just plain keeping the discus TDS doesnt really matter only water quality.. But when your ready to spawn them you need to employ a RO or RO/DI to drop the TDS down to get the eggs to become fertilized.. acclimating the discus to the lower TDS and PH that will come with it is understood..

 

[greenmaji]

My discus get mainly live CBW. I fly 2 lbs in from California and that usually lasts me about a month. They also get Tetrabits, frozen blood worms and shaved spinach.

How many Discus are you feeding with this amount of food? somewhere around 38? I was also wondering how much Tetrabits, FBW's, and shaved spinach you go through in this amount of time.
I would like to calculate the food needs of 6 adult discus per day.. in weight.

 

[BrianNY]

Correct Bill. The water parameters are unimportant in growing out young fish. What is important are stable parameters. Is your primary interest in spawning discus or keeping them in a show tank?

I know you like definitive answers and wish that I could give you a calculation for food consumption but I cannot. My feeding routine is not fine tuned or regimented. Quite often I'll feed a few tanks a second or third feeding a day, but not others. It depends on the voracity of the tanks appetite at any given time. This is a feel thing for me.

 

[greenmaji]

Is your primary interest in spawning discus or keeping them in a show tank?

I would have to say that I would like to spawn any fish that I kept if I had the opportunity to.. That is of course if it were a good specimen for spawning.

I know you like definitive answers and wish that I could give you a calculation for food consumption but I cannot. My feeding routine is not fine tuned or regimented. Quite often I'll feed a few tanks a second or third feeding a day, but not others. It depends on the voracity of the tanks appetite at any given time. This is a feel thing for me.

I really dont need a definitive answer on this one. For once...LOL. I actually just need the greatest amount of food that 6 adult discus could consume if they were very voracious eaters. In other words a overestimation would do.

 

[aquakev]

greenmagi, just an estimation, but I bought a 16 once flat pack of hikira blood worms about 2 weeks ago and it is half gone, plus I have been feeding ocationally brine shrimp so 7 md. discus, feeding heavily so their bellies are nice and round 2-3 times a day, Id say mabey less than an ounce of frozen food a day at min 6% protien. Now that I think about it. This may be a little low. I think I have read on anouther forum a guy feeding up to 2 ounces per day of worms for 14 adult discus.

 

[greenmaji]

greenmagi, just an estimation, but I bought a 16 once flat pack of hikira blood worms about 2 weeks ago and it is half gone, plus I have been feeding ocationally brine shrimp so 7 md. discus, feeding heavily so their bellies are nice and round 2-3 times a day, Id say mabey less than an ounce of frozen food a day at min 6% protien. Now that I think about it. This may be a little low. I think I have read on anouther forum a guy feeding up to 2 ounces per day of worms for 14 adult discus.

Sounds like I have a overestimation to work with.. thanks

 

[greenmaji]

He told me these fish had been imported from Asia and that he had them for more than 2 months. I reasoned that if there were to be a problem I would have seen it in his tanks. What I didn't consider is this.... If he had been importing Asian discus for some time, his stock had a built in resistance to the plague. Much like the measles, it might be a single occurance. My discus that survived the first plague seem to be fairng much better than discus that I've added since.

I have been re-reading the thread tonight and read this part of one of the first posts about how you got the discus plauge again..
I had a thought about this.... belive it or not! ROFL!
I was thinking about the measles and mumps.. I got both of these illnesses when I was 5 years old... I had another bout with measles some years later but only an ear infection was detected.. the measles were few and I didnt notice them to tell an adult about them.. Now Im pretty sure Im completely immune to this virus...
Fast forward to the discus your discus breeding member owns, His discus have been exposed to the asian imports on a constant to semi-constant level..(this is how he puts food on the table...). Im asking now, Have you talked to him about the discus plague and how often his non imported fish come down with the plague now that he has exposed them to it on a near constant basis... Im wondering if they have been made completely immune to the illness from the number of outbreaks they have indured.. in other words, Kind of like a vaccination... for just his fish..
I know this wouldnt help your fish that havnt been exposed to the virus enough times to not show signs of it anymore but here is my thought.. Would it be possible for someone who has never had any discus to start out with fish that have been exposed to the virus so many times that they are now immune to outbreaks and keep and breed only that stock? And would that be helpful or detrimental to the hobby? Im thinking that it might be passed to the fry...

I hope I am explaining my thought in such a way that its understandable to you and the readers of this post.. Thank you In Advance! I have a feeling you might like this question! I hope anyway!

 

[aquakev]

I have read on other forums people talking about immunity to the "discus aids/plage/what ever you want to call it). One person was saying that discus that have been exposed to it and survived fair better, and he seemed to imply that if you get new stock that havent been exposed to it they will get it. Kinda like chicken pox, you get it when your young, and then for the most part you are good except for extreme situation e.g., poor aquarium maintenance. So what I am saying is it is probably true that discus will build an immunity to it, but it will almost always be with them and any new fish that have not been exposed to it will probably get it. Anyway, nobody really knows what "it" is or even a sure shot way to get rid of it. All you can do is provide the best possible conditions and treat for any symptoms of the disease.
And by the way, there is no proof or studies to validate anything about this disease so any definitive answers (realistically) are imposable at this time. I know there was a round table discusion by some of the top breeders at the time in the mid 1990's but they did not come to any clear conclusions about the subject.

Another thing, fish can fight off illnesses just like we can, but when their immune system is compromised like in shipping, it leaves the door open for infestation.
Anybody else hear anything different?

 

[BrianNY]

When I was first stocking my discus tanks, I was getting them from Edgewater Discus. His fish were clean, clean, clean. He wouldn't touch a fish that had been an import from anywhere.

Prior to my attending the Southern Discus Workshop in Atlanta, I had only heard of the plague but hadn't experienced it. I returned from there with 7 seven young discus and thus began my problems. The only fish I still have from Atlanta are 2 Mandarin Passions imported from Asia. These two were the only discus I owned which had never came down with the plague and I suspect were the carriers. Every other discus in my home came down with it and I lost all the other Atlanta fish and one blue diamond.

Following the eradication of the plague, and seeing ALL of my other discus healthy and spawning again, I waited 2 months to introduce a new fish. I was given one cull from Edgwater. Mind you, it had never been exposed to the plague. This discus never came down with it and is still doing very well. My thinking is there is a time line where the virus is no longer contagious.

Edgewater Discus is no longer operational and in fact I was given all of his breeding pairs last summer. I'm still kicking myself for introducing more Asian fish into my home. I've lost 6 adult discus since then. Curiously I believe these were all the oldest fish, or fish that had other health issues. One was the fish I cured of swim bladder disease. Another was one that had continual gill problems, and the other four were just old. All of the other fish now show no signs of the disease.

Are my current discus now immune? I think so. I'll wait another month before bringing anymore discus into my home. When I do, I'll get one from Great Lakes Discus. I won't buy from anyone that imports discus because it is possible that although my discus are immune to this viral strain, they may not be immune to others. JMO

 

[rubysoho]

that is a good point BrianNY. I hadn't thought about there being different strains of the disease. *takes more notes*

 

[greenmaji]

BrianNY.....I would assume if you get new discus that have never been exposed to the virus that they will in turn get the virus.. In other words you have alot of carriers now..

I was also assuming since BrianNY was going through revelations about the virus in this thread that it these things were not known or no one bothered getting these theories and or facts published.. therefore some of the information that I am drawing my question on would not have been known to some or all of the top breeders in the mid nineties.. this is by no means a cut at anyones information, wisdom or knowledge about this subject just a reason and or excuse for my question.. depending on how you want to look at it...

Now that I think about BrianNY's story about how well he coped with the virus in the first place... If there would be a genetic abnormality with the virus, It might just be with the ones that make through the virus in good heath...

the question was more of a untested theory.. I hope that this could be studied if the outcome could make a positive impact in the hobby that is the keeping of what is considered by many the king of the fresh water aquarium.... I just might be barking up the wrong tree and if so I need to be corrected...

This is why Im saying that(the barking up the wrong tree statement..)
It seems that the natural reaction to a horrible illness is to try to avoid it at all costs.. I think that might be the mentality of most and Ill be the fist to admit that I am far from the "thinking inside the box" type of person.. I would happen to be just the opposite... I think that some of the posts that I have made might just illustrate that to be fact. So to be outside the box I am thinking to take the virus head on and treat the virus with the virus so to speak... Im just curious if this is a REALLY bad idea and need to get it out of my head and for a good reason.. I do understand that Illness compermizes a fishes immune system... but the fact of the matter is BrianNY's experiance tells me that its not comperimizing the fishes immune system it is actually improving it to that particular strain of the Virus.. and if there is more then one strain of the virus then its almost a satistic impossibly that both outbreaks are of the same strain... they both came from very different sources from what was posted, from what I could understand. So then again I would think the best medicine for the virus would be the virus so to speak mediforicly..

I guess what Im asking is that
Should Asian bread discus be banned for import? Maybe
Should all fish that have been exposed to the illness be youthinzed? No
Is it possible to just avoid the discus virus forever? No
Or should the virus be addopted as a way of dealing with the virus? Maybe

I like to deal with the posibilities in my mind...

 

[rubysoho]

I think I got what you are saying.

If the Discus who had made it through the disease had become carriers, then BrianNY would not have been able to add more discus in the past because those would then get the disease. However, once he dealt with the disease and knew all of his fish were cured, he then got more fish (I believe BrianNY has dealt with this two times now??). It wasn't until he bought more imported fish that the disease came back. In one post I remember him saying that the fish who had survived the 1st attack did quite well this second time. With what you are saying (contaminated discus always being carriers after they have been infected once) then BrianNY would not be able to safely add more discus, which he has in the past and is planning to again. So I don't think the fish are carriers after initially catching the disease and dealing with it.

As for the genetic mutations of the virus, that can happen many different ways. Perhaps someone did not fully treat the disease and so like the flu virus that is becoming immune to penecillin (ack, spelling?) this disease is mutating.

I get what you are saying about exposing the discus to the disease. Some will die off but you keep the stronger fish. As BrianNY had mentioned, the main losses were those who had already been dealing with gill problems and older discus.

that is just my 2 cents

 

[greenmaji]

Ahh... the imported discus trigger a new outbreak... Not old ones that have triggered an outbreak... Right?

 

[BrianNY]

Correct. Rubysoho you understand the plague as well as I do. Clean discus came into my home and were not affected after the 1st outbreak was done with. It makes me think there is a time line to being a carrier. That is why I bought the imported discus from my "friend". I reasoned that some of his fish would have had the plague if they were carriers.

As for the magic cure. High salt, lower temps, Furazone Green (which should be part of the medicine chest), and lots of water changes. However, even with this the diseased fish suffer tremendously. It's horrible to watch.

 

[greenmaji]

BrianNY....

The medicine chest....
What should be in it and when and what do you use each of the medicins for? If it isnt too much troble to ask? TIA!

I think I have gotten the gist of the virus.. thanks..

 

[BrianNY]

No problem Bill. You'll want to be able to treat for a variety of illnesses should they occur. Some of the more common discus ailments are as follows:

Hex - This is caused by intestinal parasites which I believe exist to some degree in all fish. If a discus becomes stressed it may stop eating and normal parasitic population gets out of control. The discus will darken and slowly waste away. Long stringy white feces is a telltale sign of this condition as well. I treat this condition with very high heat (93F), and metro. A tank of at least 20 gallons should be used to isolate the discus.

Gill Diseases - I observe the gill condition and respiration of my discus very closely. It's impossible to accurately diagnose whether gill problems are parastic or bacterial without a microscope and sacrificing a fish. Potassium permanganate will control gill flukes and the entire tank must be treated to rid the population. If after one week the problem still persists, I will treat the infected fish with Furazone Green. This is an antibacterial which has worked well for me.

This link explains treatment and methods for a wide variety of fish diseases.http://www.versaquatics.com/treatmentandmethodology.htm

 

[greenmaji]

BrianNY..

I have been wondering what if anything you do pro-actively with QT new fish of questionable origin.. Im sure you havent been getting your discus from super clean sources for your entire time in the hobby..LOL

edit: I was also wondering if some of the antibiotics needed or would be best to refrigerate them?..for storage purposes..

 

[rubysoho]

I think BrianNY said earlier he doesn't treat with much until he knows there is a problem. Even in QT (maybe he just added a bit of salt?? I'm too lazy to sift through the threas). And it should say on the bottle of the meds what temp to store at.

 

[greenmaji]

I was thinking more like pro-active heat or something not medicine..

 

[BrianNY]

With the exception of salt, I would never medicate without knowing there is a problem. IMO there is always a risk associated with treating any fish with meds.

High heat is a very bad idea unless you are convinced the fish needs it. You must consider that bacteria proliferation increases with heat. Some of this bad bacteria is always in the water column and you increase the risk of bacterial infections when the heat is turned up.

I would also never buy a discus if I suspected it had a problem. I remember where Christmasfish bought a discus from an lfs in the hopes of saving it. The net result was not only did the discus die, but she suffered mega losses to her breeding bettas.