Discus is picking on the other one

[treemanone2003]

Since work is interrupting my ability to be here now, I'll be back later to share some info I haven't seen mentioned yet and reiterate on some things that have been said.


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[treemanone2003]

So my local petco is now carrying discus and they will keep getting them in from now on and they have been on sale for 2 weeks and will be until the 25th for only $19 so so I bought a smaller 2 to 2 1/2 inch blue diamond discus hes been in the tank for 2 weeks now.

I got a second one 2 days ago its a Red pigeon discus hes slightly bigger about 3 inches in size... They both are healthy looking, eating like pigs.. I had to acclimate them to my lights in the begging I turned my t5's off and kept the dimmer t8's on and now they are fine with the t5's..

However the problem is the red pigeon discus is very aggressive to the blue diamond... Anytime the blue diamond is in view he immediately charges him and until the blue diamond runs away... Its a problem im started to get irritated with... The blue diamond is very friendly.. when I got the pigeon and had him floating in the bag the blue diamond was right next to him hanging around and he always wants to hang with the pigeon.. but now he runs immediately the moment he sees the pigeon

i plan to get more discus but right now im not sure what to do with this red pigeon... Im thinking of either returning him... Or maybe putting him in my other 30g with my livebearers or maybe in the 55g.. but the 55g has 3 angel fish in it and I don't do water changes often in that tank.. I only do it when the nitrates get to around 40 or so because its such a pain carrying 2-3 gallon buckets with a 55g tank, to my sink in the kitchen..

Why is this Red pigeon so darn aggressive, he doesn't just chase but he literally pecks the blue diamond pretty hard... I mean the blue diamond is now like always hiding and all I ever see is the red pigeon in the middle and top of the tank

This will take a couple replies for me to catch up with where the thread is now. Bear with me.


A couple things to follow up on from this post. Since the Discus are "new" to Petco I would let them get some experience of their own with them first. Chances are, they probably don't know much about them. NO MATTER WHAT THE NICE FRIENDLY LADY AT PETCO SAYS !!!! Here are some reasons behind this. First, what other fish are in the tank with them ? WHERE in the store is THEIR tank in relation to the other tanks ? Are any of their (Petco) tanks posted "Under Observation, Not for Sale", today or the last 3 weeks ? WHY would a $60 fish be on sale for $19 ? (Hmm.....) Discus are not cheap fish. Good healthy ones, anyway. Trust me on that one.

Now you have one. And it went right into your tank. What other fish are in your tank ? What size tank ? What's your WC schedule on this tank ? How did you acclimate it ? Float or drip ?

Now you've got two. Better than one but not as good as 5-6. Were they both in the same tank together at the store or is this from another shipment since it is bigger ? How did you acclimate it ? Float or drip ?

Okay, one is picking on the other despite being best buddies looking thru the bag. As stated by Andy (I think) one always wants to be the King and added one at a time is not good. Sorry, but they will continue to fight. Until there's a whole bunch and then they will still do it. I have seen first hand them bully another to death. It just happens. Petco will not take back a bully AND give you a refund. It's store policy in the very very fine print that nobody reads.

Next, do not put it in with the angels !!! It has nothing to do with the water parameters. (Sort of) If you think those two are fighting, just wait till you try that. Personal experience talking.

Discus will adapt to many different types of water. Except nitrates. Anything above 20 will stress them beyond imaginable. Forget about 40. At their current size, you could put them in a 30 but the other fish should be quite calm. Fast movers will spook them and stress them out equally.

How far is the tank from the sink ? You're best bet would be to invest in a Python system. If you're gonna keep juvies, they need multiple daily feedings and multiple (at least one daily) if not 2-3 daily WC's of at least 50%. The more the better. That's the only way to get them to that plate size fish that you've "seen" for sale.


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[treemanone2003]

Thanks,,

what about the GH and KH of the water... I got the temps they require... and PH is kinda out of the ballpark.. wild caught seem to be like 6.0-6.5 but the bred ones seem to be more 6.5-7.2 ish or so right... My PH is 7.4-7.6, but not 7.2.. Not sure if its 7.6 or 7.4 because you know how those normal ph and high ph kits go.

I tested my GH and KH just now and My KH was 3 almost 4. The GH was 6 Is this acceptable for discus and electric blue rams ?

Also im noticing the behavior more of the Red pigeon and the blue diamond.. The Pigeon only gets aggressive during feeding.. when I feed them.. (I use a mix of bloodworm and flakes because not all my fish like the worms and the pigeon and diamond both seem to eat both types.. ) The pigeon gets overly aggressive to the diamond and only until like 30 minutes after the last litteral morsal is gone and I dim the lights does he stops being super aggressive...

Then after feeding like an hour or so after or the next day when I turn the lights off.. as long as I don't feed them.. The pigeon is passive aggressive.. He lets the diamond swim around the tank and even lets him like 3-4 inches away and only very occasional does he chase him... But he still does chase him... Just not as every sight like he does during feeding... Both do eat... the diamond even though being chased away from the middle/top of the tank he still eats just fine... But the stress of the chasing makes his gills move a lot faster. They do seem to sleep together though when the lights are off

Btw why are they are called red pigeon lol.. mine isn't red at all hes orange, more like a peach orange

Honestly, don't worry about the GH, KH and trying to "make" the perfect environment. Unless you're trying to breed them. For now, concentrate on temp, pH, ammo, trites and trates.

I would suggest reducing bloodworms and get some beefheart into them. More beneficial overall.

You'll notice after you do some more, good research, that breeders have so many different names. It's all dependent on the strain. Bottom line is a PB is just that. The lack of any red is more than likely immaturity and stress related. It will come in time.


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[treemanone2003]

I have read that , , but since you don't know where those domesticated discus where breed your better off giving them they more natural conditions
here in Oregon where I live there are tons of discus breeders which is not surprising
are tap water is very soft and acid
(my well is a little harder 120ppm and ph is 7)
I be-leave that unless your very experiences and have the time to properly do water changes and keep the fish around there natural conditions , your better off raising fish that live in conditions like your tap water is (Africans if you have hard basic water, neons if you have soft acid water )

Domesticated Discus are bred in a tank. There are no more "natural" conditions other than 5 panes of glass, water, a heater, and filter.


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[candymancan]

To answer your questions no the first one they only had 1. then a week later they got like 6 more and I got the pigeon. I tried going back to get more 2 days ago but they sold the other 5 very quickly..

I always let my bags float for like 30 minutes, then I open the bag and dip in the water a little then put the bag on my lid and let it sit for another 30 minutes... But this has nothing to do with his aggression.. I've had the first one now for like 3 weeks and the 2nd one for almost 2 weeks... They aren't sick, not breathing hard, and they are eating so much I can barely keep up with the feedings lol.. The one getting picked on only really gets picked on during feeding but he still eats...

The pigeon doesn't like bloodworms, he seems to only go after flakes. but the blue one eats both, but prefers blood worms.. So I put in both foods at the same time since the pigeon ignores the bloodworms the other one gets to eat equally.. He just gets chased around a lot..

An hour after the all the food is gone, both are still looking for food, however both can literally be right next to eachother and the pigeon rarely ever pays attention to him.. he might chase but only briefly and then stop.. Right now I just fed them 2 hours ago.. I watched that new movie Dracula Untold which btw is really good... I come back and they are both on top of the tank like 1/2 an inch from eachother. begging for more food.. So I fed them again.

The blue one his top and bottom fan fins are usually 70% closed it seems when hes around the red pigeon.. and the red pigeon his are always entended.. I dunno what that means. I change my water enough to always keep my nitrates at 10.. I don't have the time to do 24/7 7 days a week water changes... I usually always do 50% every 2 days and that combined with my plants keeps my nitrates no higher then 10.. If I go like 4 days without a water change my nitrates are still in the 10 color range but approaching 20.. So my nitrates don't really go up that fast in this tank.

I have

3 Electric blue rams
8 neon tetras
4 glow light tetra
3 gold barb
3 black neon tetra
2 emerald cory cats
1 fiddler crab
1 red tail shark bout 3 inches (who is very passive)

No one bothers these discus and they don't get spooked by anyone.. the only fast movers are the gold barbs but the discus don't seem to care about them. I have them in my new fish tank which is a 45 gallon hexagon.. I moved my entire setup from my 27g to this one... so I never had any ammonia or cyvcling or new tank problems... This was awhile ago though and I haven't updated my signature in like a year I have 4 new tanks you don't see.

and like 4 other random tetras by them selves (there groups died off after like years n years and I never bothered replacing them)



Here is a video... see this is when they are not being fed... he only picks on him a little but most of the time he allows him to be around him.. but during feeding.. the slight chasing you saw goes into overdrive..

 

[gilpi]

This will take a couple replies for me to catch up with where the thread is now. Bear with me. A couple things to follow up on from this post. Since the Discus are "new" to Petco I would let them get some experience of their own with them first. Chances are, they probably don't know much about them. NO MATTER WHAT THE NICE FRIENDLY LADY AT PETCO SAYS !!!! Here are some reasons behind this. First, what other fish are in the tank with them ? WHERE in the store is THEIR tank in relation to the other tanks ? Are any of their (Petco) tanks posted "Under Observation, Not for Sale", today or the last 3 weeks ? WHY would a $60 fish be on sale for $19 ? (Hmm.....) Discus are not cheap fish. Good healthy ones, anyway. Trust me on that one. Now you have one. And it went right into your tank. What other fish are in your tank ? What size tank ? What's your WC schedule on this tank ? How did you acclimate it ? Float or drip ? Now you've got two. Better than one but not as good as 5-6. Were they both in the same tank together at the store or is this from another shipment since it is bigger ? How did you acclimate it ? Float or drip ? Okay, one is picking on the other despite being best buddies looking thru the bag. As stated by Andy (I think) one always wants to be the King and added one at a time is not good. Sorry, but they will continue to fight. Until there's a whole bunch and then they will still do it. I have seen first hand them bully another to death. It just happens. Petco will not take back a bully AND give you a refund. It's store policy in the very very fine print that nobody reads. Next, do not put it in with the angels !!! It has nothing to do with the water parameters. (Sort of) If you think those two are fighting, just wait till you try that. Personal experience talking. Discus will adapt to many different types of water. Except nitrates. Anything above 20 will stress them beyond imaginable. Forget about 40. At their current size, you could put them in a 30 but the other fish should be quite calm. Fast movers will spook them and stress them out equally. How far is the tank from the sink ? You're best bet would be to invest in a Python system. If you're gonna keep juvies, they need multiple daily feedings and multiple (at least one daily) if not 2-3 daily WC's of at least 50%. The more the better. That's the only way to get them to that plate size fish that you've "seen" for sale. Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium advice.

I wonder what your personal experience has been putting angels together with discus? My personal experience hasn't been too bad mixing angels with discus but only after carefully selecting them of course. As a general rule discus can be slower than angels and easily spooked but have you ever seen a discus chase an angel into a corner? I'll try getting a video up. I'm not sure if some of their basic wild instincts have been lost through tank breeding and I do not advocate dumping a discus in a tank full of angels and expect everything to be ok but then again putting a discus in a tank with another discus can present a problem also as per OP.

 

[treemanone2003]

To answer your questions no the first one they only had 1. then a week later they got like 6 more and I got the pigeon. I tried going back to get more 2 days ago but they sold the other 5 very quickly..

I always let my bags float for like 30 minutes, then I open the bag and dip in the water a little then put the bag on my lid and let it sit for another 30 minutes... But this has nothing to do with his aggression.. I've had the first one now for like 3 weeks and the 2nd one for almost 2 weeks... They aren't sick, not breathing hard, and they are eating so much I can barely keep up with the feedings lol.. The one getting picked on only really gets picked on during feeding but he still eats...

The pigeon doesn't like bloodworms, he seems to only go after flakes. but the blue one eats both, but prefers blood worms.. So I put in both foods at the same time since the pigeon ignores the bloodworms the other one gets to eat equally.. He just gets chased around a lot..

An hour after the all the food is gone, both are still looking for food, however both can literally be right next to eachother and the pigeon rarely ever pays attention to him.. he might chase but only briefly and then stop.. Right now I just fed them 2 hours ago.. I watched that new movie Dracula Untold which btw is really good... I come back and they are both on top of the tank like 1/2 an inch from eachother. begging for more food.. So I fed them again.

The blue one his top and bottom fan fins are usually 70% closed it seems when hes around the red pigeon.. and the red pigeon his are always entended.. I dunno what that means. I change my water enough to always keep my nitrates at 10.. I don't have the time to do 24/7 7 days a week water changes... I usually always do 50% every 2 days and that combined with my plants keeps my nitrates no higher then 10.. If I go like 4 days without a water change my nitrates are still in the 10 color range but approaching 20.. So my nitrates don't really go up that fast in this tank.

I have

3 Electric blue rams
8 neon tetras
4 glow light tetra
3 gold barb
3 black neon tetra
2 emerald cory cats
1 fiddler crab
1 red tail shark bout 3 inches (who is very passive)

No one bothers these discus and they don't get spooked by anyone.. the only fast movers are the gold barbs but the discus don't seem to care about them. I have them in my new fish tank which is a 45 gallon hexagon.. I moved my entire setup from my 27g to this one... so I never had any ammonia or cyvcling or new tank problems... This was awhile ago though and I haven't updated my signature in like a year I have 4 new tanks you don't see.

and like 4 other random tetras by them selves (there groups died off after like years n years and I never bothered replacing them)



Here is a video... see this is when they are not being fed... he only picks on him a little but most of the time he allows him to be around him.. but during feeding.. the slight chasing you saw goes into overdrive..

Buying them separately is going to always be an issue with Discus. Unless they all come from the same tank at the same time, there's going to be some issues. And that's true even when you do get them all together. There were a few other questions in my first reply that you missed that would be helpful when you get back to them. A 45 hex (or any hex) is not a good place for them at all. They need more horizontal space. That will create some problems for you.

As far as the fins not being open all the way, it could be a sign of a few things. It could be that it is showing submissive behavior to the bigger one but it could also be a health issue.

As for your acclimation procedure, I feel your method is way wrong. To float the bag in the water and then remove it to let it sit on top of a lid is a very bad idea. The idea is to make the temperature equal so there is no shock. Doing it your way will definitely create a shock as the bag is not at the aquarium temp.

As for the WC schedule, there are a few reasons behind doing a lot more WC's than you currently see fit. One of the most important is the reduction of GIH's. This is something that has been proven many times over by the best in the industry. Without this, your fish will become stunted and never reach that plate size fish.

Being in the beginner stages of Discus, I would recommend visiting SimplyDiscus

I send folks here all the time. You will find a plethora of information to assist you in your venture to keep these beauties. As a member and mod there, I get no personal gain other than passing along some of the best info available about them. The site has tons of fabulous folks as well as some of the top breeders/importers around. Hope this helps in pursuing your goals with them.


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[gilpi]

+1 on simplydiscus.com
It is a great site and being a member myself I have learned quite a bit on how to care for discus.
The best part of this is that I believe knowing how care for discus has made me a much better aquarist all around.

 

[treemanone2003]

I wonder what your personal experience has been putting angels together with discus? My personal experience hasn't been too bad mixing angels with discus but only after carefully selecting them of course. As a general rule discus can be slower than angels and easily spooked but have you ever seen a discus chase an angel into a corner? I'll try getting a video up. I'm not sure if some of their basic wild instincts have been lost through tank breeding and I do not advocate dumping a discus in a tank full of angels and expect everything to be ok but then again putting a discus in a tank with another discus can present a problem also as per OP.

I've had both sides of the coin when it comes to mixing them. After the most recent attempt, I'm more convinced not to try anymore. After my girl and I move into our own place, we will do a species only with angels and some smaller schooling something's.

While I've never timed them or used a radar gun, I've found that both are equally as fast. Especially when spooked, they can traverse a 55 in a hot second. Granted, that's at a "burst rate" and not an extended swim, but after a lot of looking around, I still haven't come across any solid numbers.

Adding new Discus is always a challenge. Even for the best of the best. And I've been on both sides of that coin also. Some excellently uneventful and others not so fun !!


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[gilpi]

I've had both sides of the coin when it comes to mixing them. After the most recent attempt, I'm more convinced not to try anymore. After my girl and I move into our own place, we will do a species only with angels and some smaller schooling something's.

While I've never timed them or used a radar gun, I've found that both are equally as fast. Especially when spooked, they can traverse a 55 in a hot second. Granted, that's at a "burst rate" and not an extended swim, but after a lot of looking around, I still haven't come across any solid numbers.

Adding new Discus is always a challenge. Even for the best of the best. And I've been on both sides of that coin also. Some excellently uneventful and others not so fun !!


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It's funny, I have a love and hate relationship with discus, had them in the past and swore "never again" until a few years ago unexpectedly I met a discus breeder, that was it, fell for it... Again.
Mind you I'm talking about the 80's when all I was exposed to were the more natural strains like brown-green, heckel and green, then I was introduced to just about every kind of hybrid and colorful strains, had to leave with a few to take home.
My second time around I had lots of failures but I think it was more related to their size when purchased?
I think I'm getting out of topic here so I'll leave at that.
Anyway, discus topics always grab my attention.


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[candymancan]

Buying them separately is going to always be an issue with Discus. Unless they all come from the same tank at the same time, there's going to be some issues. And that's true even when you do get them all together. There were a few other questions in my first reply that you missed that would be helpful when you get back to them. A 45 hex (or any hex) is not a good place for them at all. They need more horizontal space. That will create some problems for you.

As far as the fins not being open all the way, it could be a sign of a few things. It could be that it is showing submissive behavior to the bigger one but it could also be a health issue.

As for your acclimation procedure, I feel your method is way wrong. To float the bag in the water and then remove it to let it sit on top of a lid is a very bad idea. The idea is to make the temperature equal so there is no shock. Doing it your way will definitely create a shock as the bag is not at the aquarium temp.

As for the WC schedule, there are a few reasons behind doing a lot more WC's than you currently see fit. One of the most important is the reduction of GIH's. This is something that has been proven many times over by the best in the industry. Without this, your fish will become stunted and never reach that plate size fish.

Being in the beginner stages of Discus, I would recommend visiting SimplyDiscus

I send folks here all the time. You will find a plethora of information to assist you in your venture to keep these beauties. As a member and mod there, I get no personal gain other than passing along some of the best info available about them. The site has tons of fabulous folks as well as some of the top breeders/importers around. Hope this helps in pursuing your goals with them.


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You miss understood what I said... I ment I lay the lid on the bag overlapping so the bag doesn't sink the tank lol.. once you pop a hole in the bag to let some water in it sinks..... how else am I going to keep it from sinking but to lay the lid on it

 

[candymancan]

Oh I got a 3rd discus now.. Im seeing something weird with the Blue one I have.. He approached the new discus... and he like bows in front of it... the blue one did that for like 15 minutes.... then he started relentlessly chasing it... I don't mean chasing like the pigeon does during feeding.. the pigeon just chases and then stops... The blue chases the new one and doesn't stop...

Now the new one is hiding and the blue discus goes up to it and nips underneath it, and then turns its body side by side and smacks his tail into it... Then he goes a little in front and smack his rear tail in its face..

What kind of behavior is this ?? It almost looks like hes trying to mate with it lol... And he wont leave it alone either... The blue one just sits there 24/7 by the new one and constantly smacks his tail in its face..

The new one looks like this almost.. Although I haven't really got a good chance to see it in my tank... the blue one keep harassing him... or flirting with him or whatever hes doing...

http://www.aquapress-bleher.com/interzoo-2008-biotope-2/




Btw I put the pigeon in the 55g with the 3 angels and hes fine in there the angles or him could careless of eachother.

 

[Andy Sager]

He's doing to the new one what the Pigeon did to him. This is why adding discus one at a time is not recommended. There is a hierarchy and the oldest in the tank will go after the newest in the tank. You may want to separate them if it gets too violent.

 

[treemanone2003]

You miss understood what I said... I ment I lay the lid on the bag overlapping so the bag doesn't sink the tank lol.. once you pop a hole in the bag to let some water in it sinks..... how else am I going to keep it from sinking but to lay the lid on it

Yes I did misunderstand you. The proper way to "float" bagged fish is to open it from the top and roll the bag down. This forms an air pocket and allows the bag to literally float without mixing the bag water and tank water. You never put bag water in your tank !!!!! You add tank water to your bag in small increments and empty some out at the same time into a sink. Do this for about 30 mins and you'll wind up having just about all your tank water in the bag with little bag water. Remove fish from the bag, place in tank, discard water and bag.


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[candymancan]

Yes I did misunderstand you. The proper way to "float" bagged fish is to open it from the top and roll the bag down. This forms an air pocket and allows the bag to literally float without mixing the bag water and tank water. You never put bag water in your tank !!!!! You add tank water to your bag in small increments and empty some out at the same time into a sink. Do this for about 30 mins and you'll wind up having just about all your tank water in the bag with little bag water. Remove fish from the bag, place in tank, discard water and bag.


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Omg just drop it dude... been doing fish tanks for 15 years.. I don't pour bag water in my tank.. I open the stupid bag and put water from the tank in it then flip the bag over the side of the tank and lay the lid on it.. and then 15 minutes or so later I pour the bag into the sink with a net over it and put the fish in the tank.

Plz I know your trying to help me but I learned all this when I was a kid..



Anyway as for what hes doing what the pigeon was doing... The pigeon was a new discus and the blue one didn't do this to him... The pigeon also didn't flash his tail in his face either... Its weird...

From what im reading online this is a mating thing.

What im thinking of doing is redoing my tank and putting the blue one in my 10g for a little bit temp and then the other one in my 30g and then maybe a day or so later ill put them together in the new tank

 

[treemanone2003]

He's doing to the new one what the Pigeon did to him. This is why adding discus one at a time is not recommended. There is a hierarchy and the oldest in the tank will go after the newest in the tank. You may want to separate them if it gets too violent.

+1. And I'd like to add that you're not seeing any courting or mating behavior. Those are too small/young for that to happen now.

So another new one from Petco ? And no QT ??


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[candymancan]

Ok I decided to put all 3 together in the same tank and I rearranged the tank to "restart" everything and im observing a spread in aggression between the 3. I think Im going to get 1 or 2 more..

I noticed if I have just the Peach colored one with the blue diamond.. That the blue diamond is submissive and the peach one is dominant.. And if I have the blue diamond together with the new zebra looking one the blue diamond dominates the zebra looking one...

However with all 3 together... They still pick on eachother in the same order but the peach one doesn't bother the zebra looking one, but the zebra one picks on the peach one lol wierd.. Then the blue diamond zooms in and goes after the zebra one and then the peach one interrupts it and goes after the diamond..


Its weird how the peach one is the bigger of the 3 and pecks the blue diamond, but he gets picked on by the zebra one, but the zebra one gets picked on by the blue diamond... I don't get that lol

So it seems the aggression is more spread out and not as chaotic anymore.


Im not sure what the zebra looking one is called its got black verticle stripes with blue/red swirls in the whole body and when he gets chased.. his body turns white and the black stripes show better, and then after hes done being chased the red/blue come back almost imeditiatly

 

[candymancan]

+1. And I'd like to add that you're not seeing any courting or mating behavior. Those are too small/young for that to happen now.

So another new one from Petco ? And no QT ??


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Yea I never do QT honestly. and I have never had a problem with not doing it.. So can you drop it please... Im not sure if its you or 2 people but it was mentioned 2-3 times and frankly... Its my money that I labored out in the sun for.. not yours.. I do appritiate your advice and you were right it wasn't mating, but the criticism is well.... unwanted


I've learned a lot about discus from you guys so far and from watching how they behave.. And I still welcome the advice and suggestions..

 

[Andy Sager]

I noticed if I have just the Peach colored one with the blue diamond.. That the blue diamond is submissive and the peach one is dominant.. And if I have the blue diamond together with the new zebra looking one the blue diamond dominates the zebra looking one...

However with all 3 together... They still pick on eachother in the same order but the peach one doesn't bother the zebra looking one, but the zebra one picks on the peach one lol wierd.. Then the blue diamond zooms in and goes after the zebra one and then the peach one interrupts it and goes after the diamond..

What you are seeing is the "rules" of a hierarchy in action. This is why you need to be able to have the aggression spread out over multiple fish so just one doesn't get too picked on.