Do you need to clean gravel with plants?

[SSmith4]

Why do they say you need to vacuum your tank to get rid of fish poo, but then if you have a planted tank, you can't clean the gravel because of disturbing the plants?

Is it OK for the plants to remove them to clean the gravel and then put back after, or shouldn't you move them?

If you don't clean the gravel with plants, does the fish poo just stay there and pollute the tank, or do the plants help get rid of the poo pollution?

I had a tank years ago and only had plastic plants. Now I like the look of aquascaping and would like to make a nice planted tank.

 

[Caliban07]

Hmm. In my experience it really depends on oxygen availability. For example, the fish waste will mineralise in to mulm if you’re oxygenation is adequate. Mulm is the light brown fluffy material that collects on the substrate. It’s supposedly so reduced it is harmlessly inert. Some say it has beneficial properties but it will likely never be proven.

The more input there is in the water column the more that needs to be broken down. This creates a demand for oxygen known as the biochemical oxygen demand (BOD). So much so in fact that scientists themselves use this parameter to determine water quality.

Plants are a double edged sword because they can either help oxygenate the water column or add to the waste depending on their overall health.

So in summary, vacuuming the gravel can be beneficial to remove waste. Removing waste is one way of reducing the biochemical oxygen demand. We can also use plants, change water, agitate the surface, use larger surface area to water volume ratios when selecting tanks, feed less or live/frozen foods etc and add less livestock etc.

In my opinion, disturbing the roots of plants is not a very good idea. Especially if they have large root systems and have been rooted for some time. So again, I try not to think about wastes as in dirt and foul but how far they reduce oxygen and the ability for the tank to process wastes. The mineralisation of waste products is what releases the nutrients that feed the plants.

Many tanks fall in to a trap I like to call negative loopback where the BOD is just too great which leads to inefficient breakdown of waste material which adds to the BOD.

Further to your post about no water change systems it is definitely possible if you pay close attention to BOD.

O2 is king [emoji846]

 

[Brookster123]

Typically you would not disturb the substrate in a planted tank. The fish waste will settle and become the living substate you want over time. You'll want to keep excess food from settling in to deep.

 

[SSmith4]

Thank you. I didn't know about mulm before.

When you say: "The more input there is in the water column the more that needs to be broken down"

By input in the water column, do you mean the more waste in the water from fish and decaying plants?

Is the only way to ensure adequate oxygen, to put in lots of plants as well as an airstone? Also, do the type of snails that mainly feed on decaying plants help? I have some illegal immigrant snails in my tank, as there must have been some eggs in moss balls I bought. I looked up their type which is bladder snail, and it says they only really eat decaying plants. I don't have any fish in the tank yet though. Thinking of getting a small amount of mountain minnows and maybe no more than 4 platy. Or instead of the platy, maybe a male betta. I don't want a lot of fish.

 

[SSmith4]

Typically you would not disturb the substrate in a planted tank. The fish waste will settle and become the living substate you want over time. You'll want to keep excess food from settling in to deep.

OK, thanks for your advice. I will try not to over feed the fish then, when I get any fish.
Do snails help with eating waste? I suppose because they also produce their own waste, they won't make a lot of difference?

I just thought that mountain minnows don't need a heated tank but bettas do, so maybe betta isn't an option.

 

[fishingBuds]

With a heavy planted tank or with a gravel only tank it is good to vacuum the surface of your ground area if you are overfeeding or overstocking with no active cycles.
The comment above saying it is not proven the waste to be beneficial more than harmful is not precise. Depending on your tank nutritional diet , gas exchanges and the niche it can be beneficial for your micro fauna for example.

In my case, i have a 20g high heavily planted tank with oxygenation and i dont vacuum the surface or the substrate, only the hardscape when necessary. I have around 20 small fish, shrimps and snails, as well as a lot of micro fauna in the substrate. The tank never showed signs of abnormal paramaters... even when 1 fish died, i left the body inside to see what could happen with a stabilized tank and nitrates or nitrites didnt go up. The tank took its body, shrimps and snails devoured the entire body leaving the bones away, a few days later the bones were gone.

My conclusion: it depends, i would say to vacuum when setting up a planted tank and stop doing so when necessary. But i would do it more frequently with a artificial aquarium.

 

[fishingBuds]

OK, thanks for your advice. I will try not to over feed the fish then, when I get any fish.
Do snails help with eating waste? I suppose because they also produce their own waste, they won't make a lot of difference?

I just thought that mountain minnows don't need a heated tank but bettas do, so maybe betta isn't an option.

Snails wont eat poop and will create more poop...nothing you can add eats poop, but u can change your fish diet and snails diet to create "natural fertilizers". Ive been trying and studying this method by myself for some time and i was not able to get an answer in a short period...but i dont have substrate surface impurities like described above.

 

[Caliban07]

Thank you. I didn't know about mulm before.

When you say: "The more input there is in the water column the more that needs to be broken down"

By input in the water column, do you mean the more waste in the water from fish and decaying plants?

Is the only way to ensure adequate oxygen, to put in lots of plants as well as an airstone? Also, do the type of snails that mainly feed on decaying plants help? I have some illegal immigrant snails in my tank, as there must have been some eggs in moss balls I bought. I looked up their type which is bladder snail, and it says they only really eat decaying plants. I don't have any fish in the tank yet though. Thinking of getting a small amount of mountain minnows and maybe no more than 4 platy. Or instead of the platy, maybe a male betta. I don't want a lot of fish.

Yes mulm isn’t inherently bad. I know that for a fact. I have a friend who has one tank that has a mostly mulm substrate. This has been running for over a decade. The statement above about mulm and microfauna is definitely possible. This tank has living tubiflex worms throughout. If you don’t have many fish, over time your substrate will become alive. Particularly if you collect rain water.

Below is a picture of the mulm tank.



Yes the waste input. Aquariums are so small that it is easy for input to exceed output and drain the oxygen. I don’t want to get too confusing but as well as BOD there is also COD (chemical oxygen demand) which means the oxygen consumption required for chemical reactions to occur. This is another scientific measure of water quality. So it is possible that conditioners and medicine or whatever else goes in to our small bodies of water drains the oxygen.

There are many ways to improve oxygen as described in my first post. Plants are only one way and airstones are another. I like to combine all methods to keep my BOD as low as possible so that I get maximum waste break down efficiency.

As described above snails add to the BOD they do not reduce it BUT they help to process organic material in to smaller waste matter which improves overall waste breakdown efficiency. Its all connected like a production line. When all the good stuff has been released from the waste you’re left with mulm.

 

[Brookster123]

Malaysian trumpet snails are preferred for planted tanks. They will clean up uneaten fish food and move through the substrate/turn. Over feeding will result in population growth and that can become an issue.

 

[Dreamroper]

I have Malaysian Trumpet Snails in my planted tank and I think they're beneficial. They do tend to breed quite a lot, but YoYo Loaches help with that as well as not overfeeding.

 

[Fishingtrees]

I keep hoping more MTS will show up in my tank! As with any living system, just keep an eye on everything. Whether it is to many snails or algae, generally their is to much something, in this case probably food. Some fish develop a taste for snails and that is fun to watch. My loaches and apisto enjoy escargot.

As for vacuuming, I don't vacuum substrate unless there is something unappealing (personal preference) but avoid disturbing roots.

I think "vacuuming the substrate" comes from the days of undergravel filter systems. Occasional buildups of ammonia bubbles made it more necessary to mix up large gravel.

 

[fishingBuds]

Nice apistograma

I keep hoping more MTS will show up in my tank! As with any living system, just keep an eye on everything. Whether it is to many snails or algae, generally their is to much something, in this case probably food. Some fish develop a taste for snails and that is fun to watch. My loaches and apisto enjoy escargot.

As for vacuuming, I don't vacuum substrate unless there is something unappealing (personal preference) but avoid disturbing roots.

I think "vacuuming the substrate" comes from the days of undergravel filter systems. Occasional buildups of ammonia bubbles made it more necessary to mix up large gravel.View attachment 319174

 

[V227]

I keep a 120 gal. overcrowded African Cichlid community. The substrate is small grain rounded river gravel, four inches deep. I haven't gravel vacuumed in several years. I rely on the BB present in the gravel to neutralize the bio waste & a weekly 40% - 50% WC.
Never a problem.

 

[Tbox]

Africans will churn the substrate for you as they build their castle.

https://youtu.be/eTo0rE2LSOk

I keep a 120 gal. overcrowded African Cichlid community. The substrate is small grain rounded river gravel, four inches deep. I haven't gravel vacuumed in several years. I rely on the BB present in the gravel to neutralize the bio waste & a weekly 40% - 50% WC.
Never a problem.

 

[V227]

It's a constant battle filling in the trenches the Cichlids dig. Lol. Interesting & very factual video.