Does Fertz Effect fish in long term?

[kaz]

fish like any other living thing I suppose that if you do fertz like The EI method that is fine for plants but doesnt this effect the fish long term? like if a human has to much potassium, iron phosphate etc this is not good either

 

[Purrbox]

I doubt that the slightly higher levels that EI calls for would be deterimental to anything but possibly the most delicate fish. Some people have reported problems when using EI with shrimp and other inverts, but others have reported no issues when keeping some the exact same species. If you are keeping hardy fish, you shouldn't have any problems. If you keeping more delicate species it would be a good idea to do research on that particular species combined with EI and proceed with caution.

 

[Jchillin]

Even with using EI, you would not be dosing such incredible amounts within the week that would cause an issue. Now if you are not careful and skip the 50% PWC at the end of a given week and continue dosing your nutrients, you are indeed heading for trouble.

 

[Plantbrain]

That assumes no uptake by plants also.......which is not the real world.

I have Altums in 2 client's tanks, one's been doing EI for nearly 6 years.
I have other clients that has wild apistos, rare plecos, various tetras, which are breeding.......

If EI and excess cause any issues, and the whiners who make the claims also curiously also do not test very well and also never offer the specific ranges that caused death etc, I find it extremely difficult to believe that they where the least buit careful in their anaylsuis and blame things based on overstocking levels rather than from KNO3 dosign additions or trace elements.

I've gone to 160ppm NO3 before any shrimp died after 3 days, no fish ever did.
Traces: 200mls of SeaChem Flourish in 80 liters for 7 days

If any naysayer would like to tell me a range, I'm all ears.
I did, now it's their turn and I'll gladly repeat the test as I have for going on over 10 years and with far more valuable fish and stock than about anyone's tank I've ever seen in a FW tank to date with plants.
Also, I've done this, as have many others for on perhaps 1000's of tanks.

Many folks skip a water change here and there, the predictive value of EI is very well understood and defined through math(called an infinite series).

Note, even that prediction does not take into account uptake by the plants.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[kaz]

Sir Tom Barr,

I am new to this and just posted a curiosity (1. the desire to learn or know about anything; inquisitiveness. ) that has been in my mind, there is absolutly no need to 1st get defensive about it, 2nd insult anyone and 3rd its all for the reasons of education and not to be taken to offensive levels.

 

[MarkP]

Kaz- That's just the way Tom Barr talks. He doesn't mean anything hostile by it.

At a guess, he talks that way because he knows a lot about aquatic plants and fish, and has spent a lot of time and money proving things. He has also been told he is is wrong by people who don't investigate things. He wasn't calling you specifically a whiner- He was calling the people who say "EI Killed My Fish!" and have absolutely no evidence of this whiners.

(I get the same way when people talk about certain things on computers, and blame my servers for their typo's, etc)

 

[kaz]

I'll just leave it at that and not go into a discussion or arguement.

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

(I get the same way when people talk about certain things on computers, and blame my servers for their typo's, etc)

Ha, and I thought it was just me. (I got the same crap for some software I wrote and the server I set up.. ends up they were removing staples on top of the server and a "couple" fell in on the motherboard.. but that was my fault)

It's easy to get defensive, I see what you are talking about, and I understand the frustration with the way some things are said. But as with most things, sometimes something is mentioned that is sort of a sore spot. (apparently). This appears to be a conversation about what was said in replies,, not the topic.. However it's not my place to justify anything... I understand your concern..

 

[hashbaz]

I'll start off by noting that I am not an expert in biology or anything similar - but I like to research.

The levels that we use in EI might be a little higher than other dosing methods, but these levels are not really that high. The example of "if a human has too much potassium..." was brought up earlier. But what is "too much"? I am insasiably curious so I did a little digging:

Lets pretend you have water with 30ppm of potassium. You would have to drink 18 gallons just to get the USRDA (recommended dialy allowance) of potassium. In order to have problems associated from overdosing on potassium you would need a lot more than just the USRDA.

I know that this is not cold, hard evidence, but I think it shows that the concentrations we dose in EI are not high at all.

 

[Plantbrain]

Sir Tom Barr,

I am new to this and just posted a curiosity (1. the desire to learn or know about anything; inquisitiveness. ) that has been in my mind, there is absolutly no need to 1st get defensive about it, 2nd insult anyone and 3rd its all for the reasons of education and not to be taken to offensive levels.

I attack the issue, not the person.
I hope you realize the difference.

You say you are curious, then focus on that.
Sorry if you thought I was saying it directed at you personally, nope, I'd never go after someone personally on line or in person. I would not do and help folks for 15 years in this hobby if I was really a mean old crochety guy

Whiners are certainly not folks like you, sorry if you thought that(implied or otherwise), newbies in general never are, they are hearing the myth from some other source and that causes them confusion and conflicting advice, which often frustrates them to no end.

I try to help folks realize the various management methods and cut through the chaff, and there's a lot. Folks have a wide array of myths to muddle through. This hurts the hobby realistically.

Over about a decade on line I've manged to help form a group of folks that think and question things for themselves, then they can think about it and make their own assessments.

I do not ask folks to believe or trust me, I ask them to trust their own abilities and test.

Set up a test and see if this really works and matches the hypothesis.
They learn a lot this way, we all do.

Then the conflicting advice is less of an issue.
Ask the right questions.
Then test to see what the results are.
Then see if you can draw some conclusions from that.

I do not take things personally on line, I have very thick skin, others might not. That's fine also.
A lot is missed when typing on the web that is apparent and obvious in person, I keep that in mind when folks respond grumpy to me, and I will think if you research me, you'll see I have infinite dogged patience. I'm much more light hearted about things than most assume.
I also try not to judge and assume too much about others, the world is a big place and it takes all types.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Zezmo]

FWIW, I have been using EI for some time now, and keep a large variety of exotic and delicate fish. IME, a healthy planted tank causes these fish to thrive. I have had great success breeding many of these fish, I attribute the lush planted aquariums to successful breeding. I attribute EI, discipline, and regular maintenance to successful plants.

On a side note, I have had the great pleasure of meeting Tom and talking with him on several occasions. He is one of the nicest and most helpful guys you can meet. He spend an hour talking with my wife and she learned more about plants and aquariums than she had in a year of listening to me blather on about them. I am always amazed that a person of his expertise is so willing to help folks. The simple fact is one can not read much into the "tone" of a typed conversation.

 

[Plantbrain]

You have to sell the wife or the hobby, otherwise keeping tanks is bad news

I think a certain amount of EI and excess fert= bad stems from old outdated and misapplied information.

Often such advice leaves out obvious things........like plants!!
And the very real differences between adding too many fish, waste from biological sources, vs adding fertizers in inorganic bioavailable form for the plants.

Healthy plants= healthy fish= happy aquarist= happy spouse.
This is a universal observation and the obvious focus should be on the plants.
You start at the base of the ecosystem and work up from there.


Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[MarkP]

Healthy plants= healthy fish= happy aquarist= happy spouse.

I don't know exactly where yet, but this equation WILL be engraved, embossed, or otherwise displayed SOMEWHERE in my house.

 

[drobertson]

Healthy plants= healthy fish= happy aquarist= happy spouse.

I don't know exactly where yet, but this equation WILL be engraved, embossed, or otherwise displayed SOMEWHERE in my house.

I agree, but I will leave off the last one.

 

[kaz]

thanks and everything is appreciated.