Don't do what I did / almost killed my fish today

[dwayne.aycock]

With any tank it is always important to monitor your water chemistry and make adjustments when necessary. When I tested my tank water last night, I noticed that my nitrates were high. As I am not one to throw chemicals after imbalanced water, I prefer to do required water changes and keep live plants healthy. This morning when I got up, my plan was to do a 50% water change. "The solution to pollution is dilution". I have a R/O unit and my plan was to change out 37.5 gallons with 50% tap water and 50% R/O water. I drained my tank down 37.5 gallon @ 5 gallons at a time. Once I had accomplished this, I started to refill the tank, 5 Gallons of tap water followed by 5 gallons of R/O water. As I was nearing the completion of refilling the tank, I noticed that several of my fish were skimming the surface of the water, appearing to be gasping for air. My God...what have I done! These were the classic signs of temperature shock, PH sensitivity of Chlorine poisoning.

 

[Convict2161]

With any tank it is always important to monitor your water chemistry and make adjustments when necessary. When I tested my tank water last night, I noticed that my nitrates were high. As I am not one to throw chemicals after imbalanced water, I prefer to do required water changes and keep live plants healthy. This morning when I got up, my plan was to do a 50% water change. "The solution to pollution is dilution". I have a R/O unit and my plan was to change out 37.5 gallons with 50% tap water and 50% R/O water. I drained my tank down 37.5 gallon @ 5 gallons at a time. Once I had accomplished this, I started to refill the tank, 5 Gallons of tap water followed by 5 gallons of R/O water. As I was nearing the completion of refilling the tank, I noticed that several of my fish were skimming the surface of the water, appearing to be gasping for air. My God...what have I done! These were the classic signs of temperature shock, PH sensitivity of Chlorine poisoning.

So what are you saying?

Your pH was off? You didn't temp match before adding freshwater to your tank? You didn't use a anything to remove chlorine from the tap water?

What's your pH normally? Do you have to use a buffer? How did you encounter pH issues during water change?

Sorry for all the questions, but if your saying not to do what you did well then I wanna know what happened lol.

I don't wanna do what you did. Hope all your fish are ok.

 

[Calypso77]

So what are you saying?

if your saying not to do what you did well then I wanna know what happened lol.

I don't wanna do what you did. Hope all your fish are ok.

Dito........

 

[dwayne.aycock]

Had I made a rookie mistake and added 5 gallons of chlorinated water to my tank? I had several fish gasping and showing classic signs of distress ( darting about the tank, rapid gill movements, listlessness). I knew I had to do something fast! I flipped the pumps back on and flooded the tank with Seacums Prime. I spent the next 3 hours nervously watching the tank. In the end I lost one of my Coreys and one of my Rosy Barbs. All the other fish appeared to be affected by the chlorine, but improved throughout the day. I had no other fish losses. I felt bad because 2 of my fish died because of my rookie mistake. I forgot to count my buckets and must have missed treating one of the 7 I changed out. Tank levels are looking good now in terms of nitrite and ammonia, but I feel stupid for the effort. Count your buckets and don't be in a hurry during water changes. Lapses in concentration could result in your having a tank full of dead fish. LESSON LEARNED!

 

[dwayne.aycock]

I will be leaving the tank alone for the next 3 days. I think I had a combination of PH shock, ( 7.6 in the tank and 8.0 from the tap) temperature shock ( tank water 80 degree and tap water 84 degrees) and chlorine poisoning ( must have missed de-chlorinating one of my buckets).
Don't do what I did! My fish are very strong and very lucky.
Dwayne

 

[Convict2161]

You know you can treat your entire tank then add water to it, this way you won't have to worry about wondering if you treated all buckets. Just a thought.

When I do a 50% WC on my 75g tank I add Seachems Prime to the entire tank then turn the python on.

 

[Rivercats]

Fish gasping at the surface usually means low oxygen. Doing a normal WC using roughly 16 gallons of RO to start dropping your high Ph should not cause that. I'm not sure what happened but what did you do? Change out more water and add tap? Using RO to gradually lower PH is the most commonly used practice. Curious did you test your RO water for ph, kh, gh? With as high as my tap water reading are my ph only goes down to 7.0 on the RO and kh and gh both are 0. Also did you test ph before and after the WC.

 

[Rivercats]

You know you can treat your entire tank then add water to it, this way you won't have to worry about wondering if you treated all buckets. Just a thought.

When I do a 50% WC on my 75g tank I add Seachems Prime to the entire tank then turn the python on.

I actually dose for the entire tank too and then again once filled when using the water changer. It is too easy to get distracted.

 

[dwayne.aycock]

I don't think I will ever add water with chlorine / chloramines to a tank even if the tank was dosed before the addition. In my estimation, I would be adding toxic water to a non toxic tank. There is a period of time before the dechlorinator has had time enough to work, and with the unpredictable movement of fish, there is always the possibility that fish may swim into the untreated water column and become poisoned. In my tank at least, my fish have the habit of swimming toward turbidity (movement of plants, substrate and air bubbles) thinking it is food or some other activity. If I pour treated water into the tank, I eliminate the possibility of accidental poisoning or shock. Just in my case I am sure I forgot to dose one of my buckets (with a rambunctious 2 year old running around, I am sure I was distracted just long enough to make a deadly mistake. I guess my lesson learned is to do my tank chores when the house is calm, and never get in a hurry. My final lesson learned is to avoid such large water changes, and instead jut do smaller ones like 15 gallons at a time 3 times per week. Your thoughts?
Thanks for the advice!
Dwayne

 

[dwayne.aycock]

Hey Rivercats...whats up? I got the Indian Almond leaves in yesterday, and added them (3) when I did my water change today. My late this evening they were starting to leach into the water with a light tea color. My fish were curious about them, and most of the fish in the tank hovered around them all evening. After the day I had, the Indian Almond leaves appeared to have a calming effect on the fish. I tested my GH / KH and found that they were indeed softer. My tap water has a PH of 8.0. I was having a very hard time lowering it as most PH adjustors indicate that they can harm live plants. With the addition of peat pellets (in a bag) in my sump and the Indian Almond leaves, I now see a PH of 7.6, no ammonia, nitrate drop from 2.0 to 0.25, and nitrate levels at 40. My nitrate levels before the LWC were at 160. Additionally I am running a 9W sterilizer in my canister pump /filter and a 36W sterilizer from my sump after it goes through a 50 micron filter daisy chained to a 20 micron filter before entering the UV sterilizer. A bit of overkill? I am sure it is, but the UV sterilizer does not kill the beneficial bacteria, but does kill algae spores in the water column as well as certain paracites and fresh water cysts. Anyway, thanks for the advice about the Indian Almond leaves. They have had a huge benefit to my tank and fish in a very short time.
Dwayne

 

[Rivercats]

I had help here today and broke out the water changer and did a 50% WC using the above method. Actually that is the only way you can declor the water when using one. Yep the fish do get around the incoming tap water but it's never done anything. I use Prime before, enough to treat the entire tank, and again after. It's how we've done the ponds for years when doing spring and fall cleanouts and that is usually changing out 90% of the water. Guess I'm just comfortable with doing it after all these years.

Small WC's work, I do them, but also have to do big WC's like I did today. Small changes won't remove enough dissolved organics, hormones, and other pollutants that eventually build up in the water. I knew I was needing a big WC because I wasn't having to dose nitrates for a couple weeks and they crept over the 20ppm mark. After the big WC today I added some new Almond leaves and everyone seems invigorated. Then I'll go back to 10g WC's daily for another month or so. You are going to have to find a schedule for WC's that work for your tank. But I think you are still going to have to do big WC's every so often to keep your tank running healthy. Also cut down on the amount of RO to tap. I had to play with my mix for weeks before I found what worked for my tank.
I've actually accidently changed my ph by alot more than the .4 change you did today and I've never expierenced fish problems, even tho I know too big a ph change can cause ph shock I've never seen it happen. You have to watch now also to be sure your nitrites don't start climbing and your nitrates are still too high at 40ppm. You need them around 20ppm for a planted tank. Little WC's aren't going to lower them like a big one will, which is why I did my big WC today. Do let your tank rest after today and feed light but keep tabs on your nitrites and nitrates.

 

[DragonFish71]

I don't think I will ever add water with chlorine / chloramines to a tank even if the tank was dosed before the addition. In my estimation, I would be adding toxic water to a non toxic tank. There is a period of time before the dechlorinator has had time enough to work, and with the unpredictable movement of fish, there is always the possibility that fish may swim into the untreated water column and become poisoned. In my tank at least, my fish have the habit of swimming toward turbidity (movement of plants, substrate and air bubbles) thinking it is food or some other activity. If I pour treated water into the tank, I eliminate the possibility of accidental poisoning or shock. Just in my case I am sure I forgot to dose one of my buckets (with a rambunctious 2 year old running around, I am sure I was distracted just long enough to make a deadly mistake. I guess my lesson learned is to do my tank chores when the house is calm, and never get in a hurry. My final lesson learned is to avoid such large water changes, and instead jut do smaller ones like 15 gallons at a time 3 times per week. Your thoughts?
Thanks for the advice!
Dwayne

Um, I currently have 15 tanks going. I do water changes like that all the time. My fish swim in the stream of incoming, untreated water all the time. Prime acts quickly.

Hate to tell you, but you're being a tad apocalyptic about it.

 

[jetajockey]

One other thing is that Prime and other dechlor dosing is not an exact science. The dosing directions are typically heavy handed since od'ing doesn't have any noticeable negative effects. So in all likelihood the amount of dechlor used was likely sufficient for the entire tank even if you missed a bucket or two.

Even if not, the dilution of 5g chlorinated tap water into a large volume tank like that leaves the effect of chlorine poisoning negligible at best.

A few other scenarios that would cause these symptoms would be low o2 from the new water. This happens in tap water especially if it's not aerated prior to adding. However, this effect is usually minimal and resolves itself in short order in a running tank.

One other possibility is a level of ammonia in the system that is rendered toxic by the temporary increase in ph. This is a very possible reality in a newer tank or one utilizing a chloraminated water source.

Prime does detox ammonia temporarily but it only does so much. The seachem site can give exact numbers.

 

[dwayne.aycock]

I will give your suggestions a try. If the problem was not chlorine poisoning, then I have no idea what happened. That leaves me more confused than ever. I will run my R/O unit today and do a full spectrum water test. When I initially filled the tank back on September 10th, I used all tap water. My only major change was the addition of R/O water. I know the PH of R/O water can be low to acidic. Is it possible that I had PH shock and not chlorine poisoning? All I know is this
1. When I do water changes I turn off all pumps and sterilizers.
2. I drain the tank with a power head 5 gallons at a time.
3. I temperature test my tap water to be sure I am as close to the tank temp as possible.
4. I treat each bucket with dechlorinator and mix in thoroughly making sure I stir all the way to the bottom,.
5. I add the water back to the tank, 5 gallons at a time, with 7-10 minutes between each bucket. Often I OD every 3rd bucket with 2X dosing the water.
6. I turn on all air stones and o2 injectors when I start the pumps again.

I do recall adding pure R/O water not mixed with tap, followed by a bucket of tap not mixed with R/O, alternating between the two for 37.5 gallons.
Could the R/O have been the problem?
Thanks, Dwayne

 

[Rivercats]

I always add pure RO since I also use tap water. According to your numbers your ph went from 8.0 to 7.6 which should be a safe drop. As I said I've accidently changed ph as much as a full 1.0, which is really bad, without any ph shock (maybe I was lucky, but have done it more than once over the years). Even if you research most info from what I've ever read all states .3 to .4 change in ph is the max of the safe limit in a ph shift within a 24 hour period. Honestly your tank has been going through alot of changes recently. The green water and high ammonia, before your WC your nitrite you listed as 2.0ppm. You listed nitrates were at 40ppm after a 50% WC, they must have been relatively high before the WC. Sometimes things go wonky (for lack of a better word) in our tanks that we just can't pinpoint, you can't drive yourself nuts trying to figure it out. Let your tank/fish rest for a week, when you do your next WC only use 1/4 to 1/8 RO to tap until you get your tank at the ph/gh/kh you want. I've used up to 40 gallons of straight RO in my 220 (which actual amount of water is probably closer to 180g or so) and never had any issues. Have also recently used 4 gallons of pure RO when WC'ing a 20g to soften the water and drop ph for very young angels and all was fine. Don't beat yourself up, all turned out fine.

 

[dwayne.aycock]

I won't beat myself up, but I just want to know what I did wrong so that I won't repeat the same mistake. All fish are fine today, including the ones a was very worried about yesterday. No fish losses and my levels are looking good.

 

[dwayne.aycock]

I went out and checked the PH of my R/O water. R/O water has a PH of 7.8. My tap water PH is 8.0. PH in my tank is 7.6. So with that being said, this rules out the PH of the R/O water as a source of my kills yesterday. This leads to 2 possible causes.... back to chlorine or temperature swings.

I did add a liquid fert to my tank while my pumps were off, thinking the plants would have more time to absorb it. I used a tetra brand fert supposedly safe for fish. Could this have caused the problem? Pumps were off approximately 30-45 minutes.
Thanks, Dwayne

 

[tamtam]

Did you say the temp of your tank is 80 and the water you added is 84? If so I'd say that is probably your problem.

While mixing 84 degree water with 80 degree water in your tank would probably level it out at an ok temp change if your fish swim into a stream of water that is 4 degrees different than what they are used to it would be a shocker.

 

[dwayne.aycock]

I would think so too, but my additions were slow, and 5 gallons at a time. When I was finished with my WC, I did notice that my tank temp read 84 degrees which was a 4 degree change. Will temp change result in what I was seeing? Wouldn't my fish have gone to the bottom where the water was cooler as opposed to the top where the water was warmer? I do think you are on to something however....I think the simplest answer is more than likely the right answer. After all this is not rocket science. The facts before and after are in line with what you are saying.
ROOKIE MISTAKE on my part.
Dwayne

 

[chrismiller21]

I would look into your RO system. If your RO PH is only .2 lower that your tap, something is wrong. i don't use RO in my aquariums, its only for drinking but my tap is 8.4 and the RO faucet is 6.2. All the fish I gett are from the hard water in the area so adding any type of RO in my tanks would surely PH shock the fish. I also refill my tanks with water straight from my outside hose and then dose with Prime. My temp drops about 3 degrees when doing weekly 25% water changes. I use a nozzle and create a lot of aeration and the fish swim through it and play in it. I also use the jet stream to clean corners and move debris from behind plants and things I cant reach with the gravel siphon to let the filters suck up. I have never lost a fish nor have any of them act weird afterwards. In fact when I do bigger changes that way some of my fish will spawn. I also have the same charcoal-less filter pad running for almost 6 months. I just keep a bucket of aquarium water and rinse the filter in that and put it back. I would have someone look into your RO system it sound like you have a problem there.