Emergency Issue

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nuclearbroccoli

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
16
Had the lights out in my angelfish tank for the last few days while dealing with algae. I turned on the lights to day to take a closer look at the tank and noticed some reddish marks along the base of my angelfish's fins. Looks like hemmorhagic septicemia. I'm having trouble finding specific information on treatment. Specifically, what's the best med to treat this with, and at what point is it too late to do any good? It's 11:30pm so I can't do anything until I get home from work tomorrow around 5:30pm, but I may be able to get a friend to help me out with it in the morning if I'm on a really short timeline with this. Any help would be appreciated.

18 gal tank
Aquaclear 30 filter
78 degrees
ph 7.5
nitrite: 0
ammonia: .50ppm (Treated with ammo lock)
Only med I have on hand is maracyn, no maracyn 2.



 

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Killing the algae with the blackout can cause the ammonia spike from decaying algae. It is always advisable to do 50% pwc before & after the blackout to be safe. I would do that large pwc even if you use ammolock - since you might have other nasties from the decay in addition to the NH3 in the tank.
 
Just a few clarifications..
1) I wasn't blacking out the tank to kill the algae, just trying to slow it's growth until I decided how I wanted to deal with it.
2) I'm not concerned about 0.5 ppm ammonia. The ammo lock is in there and that reading was immediately following a large water change due to ph being out of whack. That usually happens when I stir up the gravel in the process of cleaning the tank. It'll settle down on it's own in a couple of days.

Heading out shortly to talk to the "experts" and pick up some meds for him. I was just wondering what the best med is for this condition.. Preferably something that doesn't completely destroy the bacteria balance in the tank. Any ideas?
 
1) I wasn't blacking out the tank to kill the algae, just trying to slow it's growth until I decided how I wanted to deal with it.

Whether you tried to kill it or not, I think jsoong has a point here and a water change could do nothing other than help out. In fact...

2) I'm not concerned about 0.5 ppm ammonia. The ammo lock is in there and that reading was immediately following a large water change due to ph being out of whack.

...you might want to rethink a few things here. First, ammonia is toxic and chances are, if your test kit is reading it, it is harming your fish. Secondly, the only thing that products such as ammo lock do is make ammonia into the LESS toxic (i.e. not non-toxic) ammonium - the problem being, ammonium can become ammonia again based upon the pH of the water. Third, an "out of whack" pH can also cause a lot of stress on your fish's osmoregulation efforts. Fourth, if you can't do a water change without mucking up the water, then you have at least one other problem because you should be removing that stuff during water changes, if not trying to avoid it in the first place. And lastly, everything above, when not attended to correctly, causes stress and stress leads to a whole host of problems, including ailments such as septicemia. In fact, the first part of treatment for this problem is usually....improve water quality :D So, to sum that up, perhaps becoming concerned with 0.5 ppm of ammonia would be the best thing to do, especially now because I'm pretty sure that the 'experts' are going to suggest a strong antibiotic which will probably harm your bacteria colony...but then again, if you had an adequate bacteria colony to worry about, then you wouldn't need the ammo lock, nor would you barely ever have to worry about ammonia in the first place.

I apologize if it sounds like I am ranting, although I guess I am in a small way. I just get a bit irritated when people ask for advice and discount what is offered up.
 
I wasn't discounting the advice that was offered. I was simply pointing out that I had just done a water change and the ph was back to normal, and that my ammonia reading does go up a bit when I stir the gravel a lot during cleaning (ammonia reads at 0ppm today). As for the tank conditions, I'm still deciding whether I want to black out the tank, treat chemically, treat with algae eaters, or just move my angelfish to a larger tank as I was planning to do that in a few months anyway.
The purpose of my original post was to get a better idea of treatments for septicemia as there is more than one product on the market for that purpose. Lot's of advice regarding ammonia, not much in the way of meds..
Sorry if my posts seem like I'm being dismissive, I don't mean to be and I appreciate the help. I'm just a little frustrated as I'm concerned about my fish...
 
I see. Well, perhaps I didn't "hear" things like you had wanted. I apologize for making assumptions. Still...

I was simply pointing out that I had just done a water change and the ph was back to normal

If/when you change water and experience a change in pH, one of at least two things is happening.

  1. You are changing too much water at one time and should be able to avoid this by doing smaller, but more frequent changes.
  2. You should take a look at the Kh of the water and find a more permanent way to provide it with the ability to maintain a constant/steady pH
As I mentioned, with only a few exceptions, pH changes are a bad thing for your fish and because you are seeing this after a water change, I am thinking that you could also be changing the water chemistry in other ways which cause stress on your fish. In fact, this is the reason why we acclimate our new fish...we are providing them some time to adapt to the differences between the store's water and our own; which they certainly can do but only to a point. Again, the reason this is important is because stressed fish are less able to protect themselves from illness/disease/parasites. Likewise...

and that my ammonia reading does go up a bit when I stir the gravel a lot during cleaning (ammonia reads at 0ppm today).

...in a cycled, well maintained tank (meaning, a cycled tank still requires our help), you should have no problems with ammonia at all. In fact, the beneficial bacteria which 'eat' ammonia and make nitrIte also 'eat' ammonium so this is why I believe you have some larger problems than you might think right now. Of course, the same thing applies, ammonia/ammonium cause stress which weakens their immune system.

If I haven't already put my foot too far in my mouth, I suggest taking a little extra time during your future water changes to not only stir some of your gravel up each time, but also do your best to remove as much of the debris you kick up so that it is not in your tank anymore. As I'm sure you already know, kicking up this detritus without removing it is almost certainly the source of the subsequent ammonia readings. In fact, by removing this stuff and then doing your best to prevent it (e.g. don't over feed, don't over stock) in the future will not only help you protect your fish, but probably help you slow down algae growth.

As for the tank conditions, I'm still deciding whether I want to black out the tank, treat chemically, treat with algae eaters, or just move my angelfish to a larger tank

While I understand and empathize with your algae concerns, it is also important to know that water quality also plays a large part in this aspect of our hobby as well. In other words, I think that taking a step back and making sure you have the basics covered will help you solve a lot of your current issues, as well as prevent them in the future.

Sorry if my posts seem like I'm being dismissive, I don't mean to be and I appreciate the help. I'm just a little frustrated as I'm concerned about my fish...
I also apologize for not representing myself in the way I had hoped...I understand that I'm not really addressing your specific questions and that may bother some people, but I also think most everyone here would agree that solving a problem like the sick angelfish requires a lot more than going to a store. In fact, despite my less-friendly comments before (for which I apologize for again), my only motivation is to help you by pointing out what I already have, as well as mentioning that medications can and usually do come with other 'complications' that I feel are going to important to you because some of those complications are similar to problems which it sounds you already have.
 
Fair enough. I should probably have given more history on the tank in my first post, but I'll do it now just so you can see where I am on this.
The tank was cycled, and the water quality was beautiful - 0 readings on ammonia and nitrite, ph of 7.5. Fish was healthy, water was crystal clear. Then the algae... Problem is, I didn't recognize it as such at the time... I was doing 25% changes weekly, but the algae was growing faster than I could manage. Granted, the tank was lit too long, so that didn't help the situation any. The problem with the algae is that it started making it difficult to vacuum the gravel properly, so I couldn't get all the waste out - hence the ammonia issues. I started treating with ammo lock to avoid killing my fish while I dealt with the algae. I made the mistake of using a fungus cure - I blame the "knowledgable" staff at the local aquarium shop for that one... and myself for being stupid.. Anyway, by the time that treatment was done, the algae was getting completely out of control and my ph was waaay off (5.0). I made a large water change as directed, which fixed the ph issue - however, I could now tell that it was algae not fungus. I took the drastic step of taking eveything out of the tank, cleaning it, and putting it back. I realize I still have to deal with the root cause of the algae, and get the cycling back on track, but I also needed to treat the angelfish. Anyway, I started treating with Seachem KanaPlex (Kanamycin based blend). It would seem that I've got about a 50/50 chance my angel will make it.
 
and myself for being stupid..

:D Luckily for both of us, there is no consideration given to the mistakes we make on any IQ test so I hope that you do not really feel this way. Out of the half dozen or so inspirational words that I heard one particularly loud Drill Sargent once told our platoon, perhaps the one that has stuck with me the most is when he said "you cannot have a problem unless you already have potential".

For what it's worth, just from reading your posts here, I am confident that you have a good grasp on what is going on, why it is going on, and probably know what to do to fix most, if not all of your current issues...but I understand that it is sometimes hard to know where to start and/or how to proceed with fixing one problem without creating a new one. However, taking a look at the "big picture" is really going to help you out in my opinion - and by that I mean, addressing the underlying causes of your problems in order to 'cure' them, as well as prevent them for happening again.
 
Thank you. I really, actually do appreciate the help. When I get stressed (and between the angel and having a cold I've got a lot of that this week...) I tend to get a little impatient and short with people. My apologies.

Speaking of addressing underlying causes of problems... Any suggestions on how to proceed once the treatment is complete? I can step up the water changes to help keep the algae under control, but I'm wondering what you think about adding siamese algae eaters - assuming I can find a store that carries them of course... If they are in any way effective I would rather go that route than playing chemist with my aquarium.
 
Well actually, I do think you should play chemist a little bit first, but I do agree with you that finding a product to deal with algae is best left as a last resort. There must be something that is allowing the algae to thrive and if you are sure it isn't light, then it is probably nutrients. In fact, it could very well be the stuff you cannot or could not remove from your gravel adding to the nitrAte levels in the tank and/or phosphate levels so by being a chemist, I mean testing for as much as you can, as often as you can...and I have found that it really helps to start keeping a log of test results because it will allow you to compare and contrast each result and usually a pattern begins to emerge.

I do admit that I am a big fan of many different types of "algae eaters" and also admit that I bought my first pleco because I thought I had to. However, I've long since come to realize that A) no algae eater eats every type of algae, B) most of the time this leads to undeserved disappointment in the algae eater purchased solely for algae control, and C) even if the algae eater does eat the problematic algae, they often do too well of a job and eventually starve so in the end, you are left with having a fish that you may not have truly wanted in the first place. Point being, if you want to have SAEs, and you can provide the appropriate home for SAEs, then buy them...but you can address the algae issue much more effectively through light and nutrient control. With that being said, even though I've only been joining in conversations on this forum for a little while, I am 100% sure that there are quite a few people here ~ perhaps even myself as well ~ who can help you figure out what is helping your algae grow if you are able to post some test results, both current and from the past if you have them. More specifically, nitrAte and phosphate levels may be the most interesting but I'm sure any others you have would also be informative as well.
 
Tommy Gun:
Test results
Phosphates: No test kit.
Nitrates: No test kit.
Nitrites: 0.0
Ammonia: 0.0
Hardness: Can't remember exactly, but it's bloody hard water.
pH: 7.5 (tap water is about 8.0)

bs6749:
Flakes mostly. Occasionally (maybe once a week) bloodworms.
 
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