Ferts and CO2 question

[Fishyfanatic]

I just hooked up the new light fixture. OMG! Who would have thought that Serpae's were such a bright vibrant red color? And the Angels, I'm seeing colors that I have never seen before. I'm in complete awe over how different they look with the new lights.

Now onto my questions.

1. I just plugged in the CO2 and light strip. Should I start dosing tomorrow? I assume the tank will be just fine for the next 30 minutes that the lights will be on.

2. Is it best to dose in the AM right after the CO2 turns on? Or does it even matter what time I do this?

3. I unplugged the airpump. That is the correct thing to do, right? The unit has selanoid so the CO2 should turn off when the light strip turns off. I have it on another timer set with the same times as the light strip.

4. When I do water changes, should I turn off the CO2 unit? Will it hurt for the defuser to be out of the water during the change?

5. As per the instruction booklet I have the bubble count at 1 per sec. Is that too much? Too little?

I think that's all I have at the moment.

 

[Jchillin]

Congrats FF! I haven't the foggiest clue about the CO2 questions but the ferts, what do you have?

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I should probably list everything that I have in my setup. Might make it easier.

55 gal Community Tank with very few plants. I plan to get more soon.
All Glass Compact Fluorescent Strip Light- 48" 110Watt
Red Sea CO2 Pro System Deluxe w/Solenoid
Ferts: Mono Potassium Phosphate, Plantex CSM+B, Potassium Sulfate, and Potassium Nitrate
Two twin neck 4 ounce bottles (I got two because I was told that I would dose two different solutions on an every other day basis. MWF gets one dosage, T, Th, Sat gets another)

 

[Lonewolfblue]

1. I would start dosing right away if you are using the full light capacity.
2. As long as you dose, it really doesn't matter when. Just remember, the reason for dosing is to keep everything in excess so nothing drops out.
3. Yes, you can turn the air off. But if heavily planted, you might want some kind of surface aggitation at night, as the plants will strip the water of O2. I learned the hard way and lost several Roselines.
4. Yes, you can turn the CO2 off. I have a separate powerstrip that I have my powerheads and solenoid plugged in, so when I do my PWC's, it's easy to switch them off and not have to unplug everything.
5. Depends on your setup. I have mine at almost 3 bubbles/sec on my 75G. And just over 1 bubble/sec on my 29G.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

How do I know if the 1 bubble per sec is adequate? The lights are already off. I have them come on at 7 AM and off at 7 PM. That way I can watch the fish for a little bit in the morning before leaving for work.

Right now my plants consist of two groupings of struggling wilting plants and 1 Anubias Nana.

 

[rich311k]

By testing your PH and KH levels you will be able to determine your CO2 levels. Here is a nice article about determining CO2 levels. You should start dosing ferts as soon as you pump up the CO2 and lighting or you will be fighting algae instead of growing plants.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

How do I know if the 1 bubble per sec is adequate? The lights are already off. I have them come on at 7 AM and off at 7 PM. That way I can watch the fish for a little bit in the morning before leaving for work.

Right now my plants consist of two groupings of struggling wilting plants and 1 Anubias Nana.

I would start at 1/sec, let it run a half a day or so, then test your ph and kh. If you are under 30ppm, then up it a little at a time, giving a couple hours or a day in between. For the 55G, I would guess, depending on your kh, you would probably be in the neighborhood of 1.5/sec to 2/sec.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

My KH is in the mid 300's. Yeah, it's high. Liquid rock.

 

[Zezmo]

Now onto my questions.

1. I just plugged in the CO2 and light strip. Should I start dosing tomorrow? I assume the tank will be just fine for the next 30 minutes that the lights will be on.
---Go ahead and dose tomorrow. You can skip a day or two now and then, dosing is more about weekly totals between water changes.

2. Is it best to dose in the AM right after the CO2 turns on? Or does it even matter what time I do this?
--Micros are best at first lights on IMO, macros can go at any time. I often do micros in AM, and the next days macros right after lights out on the same day.

3. I unplugged the airpump. That is the correct thing to do, right? The unit has solenoid so the CO2 should turn off when the light strip turns off. I have it on another timer set with the same times as the light strip.
---You may want you CO2 to come on 1/2 to 1 hour before lights on. Run it until the lights go out.

4. When I do water changes, should I turn off the CO2 unit? Will it hurt for the diffuser to be out of the water during the change?
---Does not mater in any way shape or form.

5. As per the instruction booklet I have the bubble count at 1 per sec. Is that too much? Too little?
---A good start point, probably too low, test your CO2 levels before you adjust. Make small adjustments, and then test the results toward the end of the light cycle.

6. How do I know if the 1 bubble per sec is adequate? The lights are already off. I have them come on at 7 AM and off at 7 PM. That way I can watch the fish for a little bit in the morning before leaving for work.
---Chuck Gadd has an easy to use CO2 calculator http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/
If you want to watch the fish in the AM, you can have the lights come on for one hour while getting ready for work. Then have it come on again in the afternoon. I recommend more like 10-11 total hours per day (1 in Am, and 10 in afternoon, until bedtime). This will cause fewer algae problems and will not reduce plant growth. Plants only seem to grow so long per day anyways. My lights go on from 6am to 7am, and then from 12pm to 10pm.
CO2 can not be guessed or truly set by a bubble count, diffusion, circulation, water, plants, fish, filters all affect CO2. You must test and then adjust until you get it set right. Be patient, make small adjustments. My nano (8g) runs at 1.5 BPS, on my 72g the BPS is so fast I cannot count it (6-8 bps maybe).

7. My KH is in the mid 300's. Yeah, it's high. Liquid rock.
---that is very high (dKh 17 !!!) If that reading is accurate (test and re-test) then your target ph is about 7.2 to give you 32ppm of CO2.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Thanks for the responses!

Should I see something coming out of the CO2 defuser? It looks like a little mini-tornado inside of it, but I don't see anything coming out. Should I?

I just dosed 5 ml of CSM+B Plantex. I mixed 125 ml warm water with 1 tablespoon of Plantex. It doesn't appear that the Plantex mixed completly with the water. I shook it like crazy hoping that it would all dissolve, but it didn't. I put that mixture in the fridge as per rkillings intructions one of my previous posts.

My pH is usually upwards of 8.8. That's as high as my test kit reads so it could have been higher. I just tested my pH and it looks like it is down to 8.2. I just tested my kH and it is at 232.7ppm or 13dkH. This is down from 358 ppm or 20 dkH. Is this how the tank should be progressing?

I have to say that I am very nervous about this whole thing. I know that the smallest mistake can kill all the fish in my tank. This is why I'm asking so many questions.

 

[rkilling1]

With the CSM+B, you may need to use hotter water or only mix 1/2 Tablespoon to 125mls to get it to mix. I am mixing 250mls with 1 tablespoon, so my experience my not be the same as yours.

I am not to familiar with the Rea sea diffusor, but my LFS has one running on a 55 gal tank and I do not see any thing coming out of it.

Sounds like you are doing just fine. Just keep monitoring the pH and KH until you get the CO2 set at around 30 PPM. Well, having the pH off the charts is going to be a problem.

If I remember correctly, the rea sea system comes with a drop checker. I would read through the stickies and make (or ask someone for some) a 4 KH solution and use the drop checker to monitor your CO2 levels.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

In my previous post you stated to mix 125 ml of water with 1 tablespoon of the mix. Should I toss out what I made and only use a half of a tablespoon? Next time I'll use hotter water. I use lukewarm since that's what you said to use in my previous post. I had the same issue with my other mixture.

I'll check the levels again when I get home.

What is a drop checker? Is that the half circle thing that is on the side of my tank? Yeah, I know, real descriptive huh. The instructions said to add tap water with a few drops (forget how many exactly and I'm at work so I can't look it up) of a solution and to put that in my tank. It said it would monitor my CO2. When I left this morning the solution was still blue which is an indicator of too little CO2. I didn't know if that thing actually worked or not.

 

[rkilling1]

That is exactly what I stated about the mixtures, but that may be to much ferts for so little water. My original mixtures were all based on having the 8 oz bottles, but when you couldn't get them, I just said to use only 125mls with the same mixture. I guess that doesn't work. That's my fault. If you do only use 1/2 tablespoon, remember to up the dosage to 10mls per dose vs the 5 mls you are currently dosing.

I do not mix that strenght of ferts, but I checked the concentrations on chucks calculator to ensure they would still mix. But I guess real world experiences are more correct then any calculator.

Yes, that is the drop checker. It uses the KH value of your tap/tank water and you add pH solution to it to monitor your CO2 levels. It is doing the same thing you are with the KH and pH measurements. The reason it is not changing is due to your KH values being so high. Again because you can't monitor your pH value or know where you started from, I would look into getting some KH reference solution and use the drop checker to monitor your levels.

Using your current KH number, a pH of 8.2 and a KH of 13, you are not getting any additional CO2 into the tank. I do not believe those numbers. Not at 1 BPS. I don't see how your KH could change for 20 to 13 without adding distilled water or your tap water changing significatly.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

It could be that my water wasn't hot enough too. It was just lukewarm. Should I toss the mixture that I already have and just make new? Considering how low cost they are and the amount that I have, it's not like I would be wasting much money. Maybe 5 cents.

I'll re-check the tap KH this evening when I get home from work. I'm trying to understand what you are saying so I'm basically going to repeat what you said above just to make sure I understand it. The thing that I have in the tank is a drop checker. The solution that I added to it is measuing the CO2. The reason why it is showing insufficient CO2 is because my KH is very high. After that you lost me. I just briefly looked at the sticky regarding a KH reference solution and it confused me so I think I'll have to look at it later on.

Using your current KH number, a pH of 8.2 and a KH of 13, you are not getting any additional CO2 into the tank. I do not believe those numbers. Not at 1 BPS. I don't see how your KH could change for 20 to 13 without adding distilled water or your tap water changing significatly.

You say that I'm not getting any additional CO2 into the tank. What makes you think that? Honestly, I'm just trying to figure this all out. Why don't you believe the numbers? That's what my test kits showed this morning.

 

[Purrbox]

I'd go ahead a remix the solution since it's not like it costs that much to redo. That way you should be able to get it to dissolve better and will have more confidence in the amount that you are dosing.

I believe that Rkilling is saying that your test results are showing no change in CO2 levels, which isn't a reasonable result with the amount of CO2 being injected. Normally when injecting CO2 the pH will drop but the KH will remain the same. The fact that both your KH and pH dropped is rather unual. This points to either an error while testing, a problem with the kit, or something very odd happening in the tank.

The solution in your drop checker is basically just a bit of water and some drops from a pH test kit. Since your water maxes out your pH test kit, the checker isn't going to perform as designed. By mixing up a reference solution with Distilled Water and Baking Soda, you can get a known KH level that will allow the drop checker to function as expected. There's actually a sticky at the top of the forum that deals with this very topic in more detail.

 

[rkilling1]

If the mixture is not mixed well, then I would toss it and remake it up. Why chance it if it costs so little?

Onto the CO2 measurement:

We will start from the beginning. When you add CO2, it forms carbonic acid which lowers the pH of the water. The more CO2 you add to the water, the lower the pH will be.

KH is a measurement of the buffers (not all of them) in your tank. The higher the KH, the higher your pH will be. The KH value will remain the same when you add CO2.

If you know your KH value, you will know what your pH is without adding any other buffer.

Normal CO2 levels in a non-CO2 tank is 3 PPM. Knowing what your KH is and also the CO2, you can use a KH/pH chart to plot what your pH is.

So if we plot 13 KH and a CO2 of 3 PPM (normal value), we come up with a pH of 8.1. (having a pH of 8.2 is saying that you are not above normal CO2 levels and that is why I said I do not believe your numbers)

With a KH of 13, you are shooting for a pH of 7.1 to obtain a CO2 level of 30 PPM, BUT you need to figure out why your KH numbers are changing first. It is very important to know the KH if you are adjusting your CO2 inreference to this value.

Here is Chuck's calculator which has this table in it.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_aquacalc.htm

I hope this is a better explanation. Please keep asking until we get you onboard.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Ok, that explains a LOT. I read the sticky earlier but it just wasn't clicking in my head. I'm such a newbie at this that I feel like an idiot. To you guys it's probably simple. Thank you for taking the time to break it down for me rkilling. It is GREATLY appreciated. I read all these articles and whatnot but it just doesn't make sense in my head.

Just re-tested my tap and got a reading of 7.0 on the pH scale. That can't be right. I tested it three times. I'll let a cup of water sit out over night and then re-test. It's a new test kit. Can pH really increase THAT much overnight? My tanks normally tests off the charts.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

I find that in mixing a lot of my solutions, in order to get it to completely mixed, you need to use the hottest water possible out of the tap. I let my tap run til it's hot, then do my CSM+B, and it all disolves just fine. Then I put in a brown paper sack and then into the refrigerator.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I let water sit out over night and it just tested 7.8. Straight from the tap is 7.0. Yesterday I tested 8.2 from my 55 gal tank. Maybe I should test it after I get home from work tonight and see where the level is after letting it sit out even longer. There is nothing in any of my tanks that raises the pH. I just tested my tap that sat overnight and it is 13dKH. Our tap must be getting softer since the last time I checked.

 

[Purrbox]

Often the water companies will change the water treatment twice a year, which can have a pretty significant effect on you test results. This is why it can be good to test you tap water periodically to check on it's current composition.

It's not at all unusual for tap water to have a high level of CO2 straight out of the tap, as this helps to prevent corrosion of the pipes. Letting the water sit for 24hrs or aerating for an 1hr will generally gas off most of this excess CO2 allowing you to get a true pH reading.