Fins clamped, flashing

[wideglide]

Hi everyone,

Here's my setup.

30g tall
HOB Penguin Biowheel 150
HOB Whisper10 Powerfilter
Undergravel Filter
2500cc\min x2 air pump running the undergravel filter
Air pump running to bubble wand placed next to the HOB outlet.
Temps: 77.2-77.8F
Substrate: 1.5" Estes Marine Life Coral (says best used where a non ph altering substrate is desired), 1" Estes Spectra Stone (top layer)

Plants: Some anacharis (planted and floating), 1 crypto and some fake plants.
Lighting: 1 PCF 65watt, 18" 15watt flo, 10W compact flo from Lowes
The light duration varies by a couple of hours daily. Basically it's not on a timer, I turn the light on at lunch and off when I hit the sack, which varies some.

Stock
6 Black Neon Tetras
6 Cherry Barbs
4 Corys
1 Red Tailed Shark
4 Apple Snails
2 Nerite snails
2 Cherry shrimp
Various small snails

Params (API liquid kit)
NH3 0
NO2 0
NO3 10
PH 7.8

Mardel Dip stripsDon't understand the values)
ppm Total Hardness 120
ppm Total Alkalinity/Buffering capacity 240

Couple of porcelain decorations.

Not sure what's going on with my tank but just yesterday my cherry barbs and red tailed shark have gotten clamped fins and are flashing quite a bit. The barbs gills may look a little red but the fish are red and I think that area is usually a bit more red anyway.

The tank is a couple of months old and I've not had any ammonia or nitrite for a while. I used the gravel, filter and water from my previous 10g which has already been cycled for about a week.

I'm pretty sure my tank is overstocked as I'm doing a 30% pwc about once every 2-3 days. I like to keep my nitrates at 10 or below. The tank has lots of hiding spaces.

I do have a 46g bow I'm cleaning up to get more space. Which reminds me, I would guess there's some sort of addiction issue with the whole fish hobby, right? Oh no......this isn't good......

I did have a freshwater clam die on my a few days ago but removed it from the tank. I also did a pwc and switched out both HOB filters. Yesterday I think I probably did 3 25% pwc's and a 35% pwc trying to figure out what the deal with the water was. I didn't get any decent results other than the params were great!

My other inverts are all doing great and eating and growing like pigs. The corys seem to be fine and the black neon tetras seem to be ok. Plants look great and have new growth!

The barbs sometimes go near one of the outlets of the UGF and swim up and down the wall against the current but it looks more like play than struggle. Their fins are all up when they're doing this. Then they'll go flash against something and their fins will be clamped. I've seen them move their heads side to side kind of in a jerking motion, which is not their usual behavior based on my observation.

This morning I went and got some API Stress Coat and some API Melafix. After dosing the Melafix the barbs and the neons started swimming in and out of the various currents. Not sure if it was from relief or more problems, though.

Sorry this is so long but I figure the more info the better. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I just don't get it. Thanks for any help!!

One more thing I'd like to mention. Every once in a while I'll see a really weird looking bubble fly through the water. It looks bigger than all the others but doesn't float to the top as quick. I swear I even saw one of them "pop" before it reached the surface of the water! It was big then instantly it became extremely tiny. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Zagz]

Are you adding dechlorinator with your water changes? I assume you can't see any spots of ich on the fish? Ich can attack the gills without any visible spots. If you wanted to raise the temp to 87-88 as a precaution you could do that without harm to the fish, inverts or plants.

 

[wideglide]

I use Amquel+ and Novaqua+. I put 3ml of Amquel+ and while I'm filling the tank I slowly drop another ml into the stream of the tap water. After the fill I add 3ml of Novaqua. If I've done a water change the day before I just use the Novaqua+.

I can't see anything abnormal about any of the fish or inverts but I'm not real experienced with fish, etc. either. Really the fish have seemed to be acting better the last day. The flashing has almost stopped and the dorsal fin on the shark is upright again. Four of the barbs' fins are still clamped but they're not flashing much at all anymore.

I think I'm going to do a few more rounds of the Melafix and if they fish act normal stop there. I'd raise the temps but I don't want the apple snails to grow too fast because I believe it can increase the chances for problems in the growth of their shells. I also don't want the metabolism in the fish to increase, at least until I get the 46g bow setup.

If I don't see more improvement or see signs of ich then I'll go ahead with the temp increase. Does that make sense or would you go a different route? Thanks so much for the help!!!!

 

[Zagz]

I've never heard of novaqua+, I assume it is a dechlorinator? If the fish are improving then I agree to wait on the heat treatment.

 

[wideglide]

I've never heard of novaqua+, I assume it is a dechlorinator? If the fish are improving then I agree to wait on the heat treatment.

Yes Novaqua is a dechlorinator\conditioner. It's made by the same manufacturer as Amquel. Here's a link.

I think the bubbles I mentioned above I see disappearing under water are CO2 bubbles. Does that sound right? Just curious, where would that be coming from? The plants?? TX!

 

[Zagz]

Bubbles do come from plants. So it may very well be that you are seeing bubbles come from your plants.

 

[Jchillin]

I don't see anything wrong with your params, looks ideal. You have a couple of passive/aggressive species in there (red tail and cherry barbs) that could be stressing each other out leading to lowered immune systems and the incursion of parasites and/or bacterium.

You also have an amazing amount of light and filtration on that tank, usually one HOB is enough. The lights, when they are all on, is pumping 3wpg, which could lead to algae outbreaks if not controlled. The filtration is probably giving you a ton of water movement, yes?

You could eliminate one of the HOB's, the penguin being my choice. The bubbles you see in the water column is more than likely undissolved 02, which occurs in tanks that have 02 saturation.

Keep an eye out for signs of disease, especially ich as noted.

...and yes, tanks are addictive. The condition is identified as Multiple Tank Syndrome for which there is no known cure.

 

[wideglide]

Just noticed tiny white spots. Pretty sure it's ich. How fast\slow can I raise the temps? The barbs are flashing pretty bad and I'm afraid if I let the temps stay below 86f for long it might get bad. Can I do something like a degree every couple of hours? Right now I'm at 80f. Also, should I stop the Melafix or would help prevent secondary infections? Thanks for the help!

Let me add:

I don't see anything wrong with your params, looks ideal. You have a couple of passive/aggressive species in there (red tail and cherry barbs) that could be stressing each other out leading to lowered immune systems and the incursion of parasites and/or bacterium.

I do see the shark lunge at a barb now and then but I've never seen it actually connect. The shark really minds his own business 99% of the time and the only times I see him lunge at a barb is when a barb strays into the sharks territory or if a barb starts bugging him. This shark doesn't seem to be very aggressive. I never see any split fins or damage on any fish in the tank. I will keep a close eye on their behavior, though.

You also have an amazing amount of light and filtration on that tank, usually one HOB is enough. The lights, when they are all on, is pumping 3wpg, which could lead to algae outbreaks if not controlled. The filtration is probably giving you a ton of water movement, yes?

I have quite a bit of floating anacharis and the tank is something like 30" tall (can't find my tape). It just doesn't seem very bright with less light. So far I've had no problems with algae. My snails are pigs! I don't have all the lights running when the lights are on(lol). I don't turn the 65w PCF or the Lowes bought CF on until I get home from work. All three lights are on for 5-7 hours a day. Do you think this is too much?

I started out with a 10 gal. and decided to use the filter from it along with the other HOB. I've got the small HOB turned up about half way. There's not much current coming from the small HOB. I've got the UGF tubes pointing towards the closest corners so I think the current there dissipates pretty well. The fish have quite a few large areas where they barely drift.

You could eliminate one of the HOB's, the penguin being my choice. The bubbles you see in the water column is more than likely undissolved 02, which occurs in tanks that have 02 saturation.

Does having the two HOB's cause any problems? I kinda need it to take up the space in back where I cut out the plastic. The apple snails can escape.

Is O2 saturation harmful? I do have quite a lot of regular bubbles in the water. Should I turn the bubble wand down a bit?

Keep an eye out for signs of disease, especially ich as noted.

Forgot to ask, is there anything I can add to the tank to support the fish right now and not hurt my inverts in the process?

...and yes, tanks are addictive. The condition is identified as Multiple Tank Syndrome for which there is no known cure.

[/quote]

Hi everyone. My name is Rob and I have MTS.

 

[Zagz]

Raise the temps 1-2 degrees every 6-12 hours depending on how your fish are managing. If the flashing and spots get worse, you will have to weigh out whether or not it is worth the risk to increase the heat faster. I once didn't raise the heat fast enough and I lost 3 fish, it really depends on how your fish are doing. I don't really see the need for melafix treatment myself. Your parameters and water changes are good and that is what will keep your fish healthy. I have had a couple of bouts of ich and had a feeling that may have been your problem.

As Bill mentioned the 2 HOB's can cause undissolved 02. If you want 2 filters you might want to consider a cannister as your second filter. I overfilter all my tanks as well but can tell you with exception of my goldfish tank, I don't run 2 HOB's. I run cannister and HOB combinations.

The shark may get aggressive as time goes on. Another excuse for another tank IMO.

I can't help you out with plant advise, Jchillin is my plant guru.

 

[wideglide]

Thank you Anne,

Okay, I got the temps to 87 degrees. I may have been foolish and raised them too quick but I'm pretty sure the barbs have it in the gills and a couple of them were looking really bad. I did stay awake and monitor the fish the entire time except for the 2 hours of sleep I got.

I think maybe I've gotten lucky because when I went home at lunch the everyone seemed to be doing fine and the barbs may have improved a little. Or maybe they're just more active because of the temps but I really do think the two that seemed to be doomed are acting a lot better. Again I'm not real experienced and may be overly optimistic. Hope not. Also, all the inverts seem to be okay as well and I'm guessing they would be the first to have problems with the temp change.

It's amazing how much more active everyone is! Watching two honkin' snails fight over an algae wafer is quite entertaining.

The shark may get aggressive as time goes on. Another excuse for another tank IMO. Smile

Well we certainly can't have an aggressive fish causing problems now can we?

With regards to the undissolved 02, what exactly is that (why and how - the wierd bubble, etc.) and how does it effect the fish, params, algae, etc? Does it cause nitrates accumulate faster due to anaerobic bacteria problems? From what I've read I think I'm on the right track there but I'm not real sure.

Also, it is my understanding that raising the temp can cause less O2 so should I maybe keep it the way I have it during the ich treatment? I figure if the barbs are having difficulty with their gills their respiration wouldn't need to be as heavy with more oxygen in the water.

Ok, that's all for now and thanks again for the help!!

 

[Zagz]

I would definately keep it the way it is during treatment. The bubble wand you have is also an excellent idea. I don't think you need to worry about being overly optomistic, I tend to be optomistic when fish appear better as well.

I must confess I've not had any problems myself with undissolved O2 so I am not experienced enough to advise if you need be concerned. Do you have sand as a substrate? If so stir it periodically to avoid gas pockets. That is what I do and I've had no problems.

 

[wideglide]

The bubble wand you have is also an excellent idea.

Thanks! It really pushes bubbles throughout the water. It's easy to turn up too far though and make the water actually look a little cloudy.

Do you have sand as a substrate?

No I've got medium gravel and coral. I don't think I've ever seen a strange bubble come from the substrate. Where it looks like they're coming from is the outlet of the small HOB.

I'm a bit worried now as a couple of the fish have more spots than they previously did.

I read that in a couple of days from the start of treatment I should be able to see less spots on the fish. I started this treatment and the temp reached 86.5-87 on Thursday morning. It's been 2.5 days now and I'm noticing more spots! Any thoughts there?

I've got two heaters and 4 thermometers.

Two suction cup thermometers: 86.5f and 86.0

One hanging therm. 86.5f

One digital w\probe 87.1f

Should I raise temps a bit or wait and see if I get even more spots? TX!!!

 

[Zagz]

It does get worse before it gets better. I'm sure you will start seeing improvement within the next day or so. You could bump the temp another degree to be safe if you wanted.

 

[wideglide]

I'm glad you said that because I swear I saw even more spots! Really it looks like I caught this before it became a huge problem. I would bet this all came from the barbs. Ever since I've had them I would see them flash maybe once every few days. Being new at this I considered it to be something that may happen every once in a while. I even thought maybe it was a breeding behavior because my females have been pregnant a few times I think and the males do chase the females around.

I am keeping a close eye on the shark and he still doesn't really bother anyone. In fact I've seen him be "bullied" by the corys and just go away. He does still have the white tips on his fins so he's not an adult yet. I'll have the new tank setup in a week or two and will probably separate the two species anyway to be safe.

Thanks again, you've eased my mind!

Oh yeah, I did raise the temps a degree.