fish less cycle stalled (or I need patience)

[jlbfish]

We are trying to cycle my sons 20 gallon. We started in the beginning of March. Lately I haven't seen much of a drop in ammonia. Nitrites have been off the chart and Nitrates look good (I have done either 50 or 100% water changes per day for the last few days).

Initially I read that the pH could stall so I didn't change for the nitrites being off the chart I was watching pH. But I also recently read that high nitrites can stall your cycle so I have started changing water again.

My question is do I need patience here or am I stalled?

Also if my tap ranges from 8.0 do I consider 7.4 a pH crash? Normally I didn't consider it a pH crash unless it read lower than 7.4 (or lower than the high pH chart).

My son has been so patient (he is 6) so I want to do it right.
Thanks!
Jana

 

[librarygirl]

So did you originally see drop in ammonia? If so how much and for how long? Nitrites are a good sign. Typically ammonia will drop to 0 in 24 hours and then nitrites show up. If ammonia has stopped dropping then something is stalling.

SOme questions for you:
--What kind of ammonia are you using?
--How often are you dosing and how high?
--What type of test kit?
--How high is the temp?
--Is it possible you overdosed ammonia which could cause things to stall?
--You're using dechlorinator/conditioner with water changes, right? What kind?
--Do you have any nitrates?
--Do you have an air stone or does the water falling from the filter cause the water surface to ripple? (this helps create oxygen exchange which the bacteria need)

A PH of 7.4 is fine. The water out of your tap may be 8 but it might be different once the water gasses out. You could leave a glass of water sitting out for 24 hours and then test it; that will be your true PH. For example, the PH out of my tap is 8.4 but once it degasses it falls to about 7-7.2 which is what my tank's PH is.

The thing with PH drops is that if it drops low enough the bacteria will stop producing but the PH would have to fall to the mid 6's or below for this to happen.

If you can answer my questions above it would help pinpoint or eliminate any issues. My advice right now without knowing more would be to do at least one 100% water change with dechlorinator and wait for 30-60 minutes then test ammonia and nitrite. Try to get nitrite to a level that's readable on the chart (<2 would be good); this might require more than one large water change. Then don't dose ammonia anymore today and test again in 24 hours.

 

[jlbfish]

So did you originally see drop in ammonia?
Yes we did

If so how much and for how long?
Ammonia went from 4 to 1 back in March and I dosed it back to 4. Then it went to 2 a few times. It has never gone to 0

Nitrites are a good sign. Typically ammonia will drop to 0 in 24 hours and then nitrites show up. If ammonia has stopped dropping then something is stalling.

SOme questions for you:
--What kind of ammonia are you using?
Ammonia from Ace Hardware. Ammonium Hydroxide
--How often are you dosing and how high?
I dose to 4 after water changes. I try to go no higher. It is possible that a couple of weeks ago I went higher than 4 but when I went back to check it looked like a 4 so I am not sure.
--What type of test kit?
API Master Test Kit
--How high is the temp?
86/87'ish
--Is it possible you overdosed ammonia which could cause things to stall?
Possible
--You're using dechlorinator/conditioner with water changes, right? What kind?
Yes we are using Prime
--Do you have any nitrates?
yes. Last week (around April 2) NitrAtes skyrocketed and since then have tested around 10-30
--Do you have an air stone or does the water falling from the filter cause the water surface to ripple? (this helps create oxygen exchange which the bacteria need)
No air stone but we keep the water falling a few inches to create agitation

A PH of 7.4 is fine. The water out of your tap may be 8 but it might be different once the water gasses out. You could leave a glass of water sitting out for 24 hours and then test it; that will be your true PH. For example, the PH out of my tap is 8.4 but once it degasses it falls to about 7-7.2 which is what my tank's PH is.

The thing with PH drops is that if it drops low enough the bacteria will stop producing but the PH would have to fall to the mid 6's or below for this to happen.

If you can answer my questions above it would help pinpoint or eliminate any issues. My advice right now without knowing more would be to do at least one 100% water change with dechlorinator and wait for 30-60 minutes then test ammonia and nitrite. Try to get nitrite to a level that's readable on the chart (<2 would be good); this might require more than one large water change. Then don't dose ammonia anymore today and test again in 24 hours.

Thanks! I will do the water changes until the Nitrite is <2 and leave ammonia alone for 24hrs.

 

[blert]

I have read elsewhere of folks dropping in a small pinch of fish food when a fishless cycle stalls to add a few more nutrients that may have been missing/depleted in the process (mainly phosphate I think). Not sure if it is bunk or not but it couldn't hurt to try.

As stated above, don't stress the pH unless it is dropping into the low sixes, and it wouldn't hurt to try and get the nitrite back down to a readable level.

 

[librarygirl]

A bit odd that ammonia isn't dropping faster by now. You're using tap water....it's possible your municipality uses a higher level of chlorine or chloramines than the standard dose of Prime can handle. You could try double-dosing Prime and see if that helps. I don't see anything else that stands out that would be causing any issues. Could anything have gotten into the tank such as cleaning chemicals, bleach, air freshener, etc? Are you leaving the filter media alone or are you changing it or rinsing it?

For now I'd try the water change(s) to get the nitrite down, double-dose Prime, don't redose ammonia yet -- wait a day or two to try to get ammonia to 0 or close-to. Then dose ammonia only to 2 for a few days and post here and let us know how it goes.

 

[jlbfish]

I am leaving the filter media alone and was debating rinsing but didn't know if it was necessary at this point. I will do the prime etc.

Question: IF I find that double dosing prime helps kick start the cycle again does that mean I should double dose dechlorinator in my tanks with fish?

I read about the fish food too but wasn't sure. I will get nitrite under control and see what happens. Thanks so much!

 

[blert]

...
Question: IF I find that double dosing prime helps kick start the cycle again does that mean I should double dose dechlorinator in my tanks with fish?
...

Yup. Prime will remove about 4mg/L chloramine or 5mg/L chlorine per 5ml, according to the bottle. If your city puts in more than that to your water then you will need to use more Prime.

 

[jlbfish]

I did water changes will nitrites were below 1 and left the ammonia alone for 36 hrs (meant to be 24 but things got crazy). I doubled the prime.

Today the measurements are:
Ammonia .25
Nitrites between 1 and 2 (has stayed lower and isn't off the charts but is higher than yesterday)
Nitrates 5 (this is a drop the usual is 10 or higher)
pH is 8

So do I up the ammonia to 2 or 3 to try to keep the nitrites from zooming off the charts or go back to 4?

Thanks!
Jana

 

[HeatherW]

go ahead and dose up to 2 or 3 and lets see how it goes from there.

 

[jlbfish]

Will do! Thanks

 

[librarygirl]

Yeah I'd say dose to 2 or so for the next day or two and see what happens. Nitrites are probably going to climb again, that's normal, I'd just like to see ammonia dropping too.

 

[jlbfish]

I dosed up to 2 or 3 around 2pm and tested tonight. not sure if it is too soon. Test results are as follows

pH 8.4
Ammonia 2
Nitrites 2
Nitrates 10

What do you do about a pH spike? Is it as concerning as a pH drop? We are usually around 8.

and the Nitrites are heading off the charts again do I test again in 12 hrs or 24?

Thanks so much for the help!
Jana

 

[jlbfish]

Think I'm stalled :/. 24hrs later
Nitrates 10
Ammonia 2
pH 8
Nitrites >5

Not sure what to do.

 

[paytertot]

If your nitrites are more than 5, you need to do PWCs to get them to a readable level

 

[jlbfish]

I have been doing PWC and 100% water changes, pH is not dropping by much (in fact it skyrocketed the other day which was weird). Nitrates are staying steady and Nitrites climb off the charts.

The ammonia is not dropping.

I'll do another one tonight after my kids are asleep (the tank is in my sons room). Is it possible to make it a fish in cycle?

I'm going to add some fish food too and see if that helps. I would think we would be done by now. If it is possible to turn into a fish in cycle that would be great. I ended up with some homeless ich infested red eyed tetras and a black neon. They should be coming out of quarantine next week and if they could go into my sons tank it would be great. I can keep an eye on levels but with the nitrates that high and smaller amount of ammonia I would think my only problem is the crazy nitrites.

 

[HeatherW]

I don't think you are stalled. You are seeing movement so that is good. Give your tank a chance to do its thing. What you really need is to see the ammonia drop. Just let it go - no water change yet. It is ok for the nitrites to get up there for a few days. Just keep watching the ph. We don't want that to drop a whole lot.

And no I don't think it would be a good idea to switch right now to a fish in. You kinda want that ammonia to drop some first- it would make it a lot easier for you and much better for your fish.

Post your results tomorrow

 

[jlbfish]

LOL I will have to wait on the water change. I seem to have lost my adapter. :/

Thanks! I hope I am not stalled. I just see that little picture my son drew for me when we got his tank and I get impatient. I will check it out tomorrow. I read some other links and noticed that the fish food could add some phosphates so I added some of that and will check it out tomorrow.

Thanks for everyones advice!

 

[jlbfish]

Everything is pretty much the same today. Ammonia went down to 1. I'm going to leave it till it hits 0. Then do a water change and dose back to 4 and see what happens. Any opinions welcome!

 

[HeatherW]

so what are your exact numbers today?
I would go ahead and dose the tank up again to 2-3ppm. no need to let it go all the way down.
but... what are your other numbers?

 

[jlbfish]

Today it's
PH 8.2
Ammonia 1
Nitrites off the chart. It's a nice fuchsia
Nitrates 10 or 20 maybe a bit higher. Can't tell the difference between 10 and 20 on the chart.