Frogfish died :x
- Thread starter Bonez
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24 gal cube.melosu58 said:
Considering it was only 3" I don't think it was stressed by the tanks size but without knowing parameters i.e. ph/sg/temp/nh3/no2/no3/alk/ca/ect... (real numbers) it's not easy to say if it was stressed otherwise.
How does your other stock look?
macman7010
Aquarium Advice FINatic
I agree with tec on that: A 3" fish in a 24 gallon aquarium likely was not stressed to the point of death. Besides that frogfish are not very vigorous open water swimmers.
I will stay on my side of the fence on this one..Whether the fish is small or not, a 24 gallon was not an appropriate size tank..why? If a tank less then 2 ft wide was acceptable, then 70 as a minimum would not be suggested. Whether it is due to bioload from messy eating habits or whatnot, the tank was too small for the fish.
seaham358
Aquarium Advice Addict
From what I have read about them they do not require large tanks and a 24 should be fine for one that small. What kind of FF was it?
What were you feeding it? Goldfish?
swollen and puffy is because its dead and filled with gases from the body breaking down.. Most dead things get bloated..
tank temp?? how long did you have him? If the suck in air that can kill them if they can't expel it..
What were you feeding it? Goldfish?
swollen and puffy is because its dead and filled with gases from the body breaking down.. Most dead things get bloated..
tank temp?? how long did you have him? If the suck in air that can kill them if they can't expel it..
macman7010
Aquarium Advice FINatic
My first question would be how long the 3" frogfish was in the tank. Considering that many retail facilities quarantine fish in tanks much smaller then 24 gallons for extended periods I think it is safe to assume that a small amount of time in a less then recommended tank can fare alright. Many LFS's utilize long slender tanks with acrylic partitions, only giving the fish a tiny amount of room to house the fish that are offered for sale; even in those tight quarters fish can survive.
While I am totally not advocating keeping fish in tanks too small for them; or tanks too small to accommodate them as adults; I don't believe that the stress of a 3" fish being in a 24 gallon aquarium would kill a frogfish. A surgeonfish perhaps or even another species that is an active open water swimmer. Famous Discus breeders not only house but successfully breed Discus fish in 20 gallon long tanks. Tanks of 55 gallons or more are often recommended for Discus fish but the nature of the fish's swimming habits can make them easy to house in smaller quarters.
Another question I have for Bonez is how often the fish was fed and what it was eating. Also how frequent were you doing partial water changes. Bio-load could have played a role in this fish's demise although if PWC's were done on the proper basis (maybe even more frequent then recommended) it may not have been an issue. Also a post of water chemistry readings:
Nitrate
Phosphate
Ammonia
ph/alk.
would be very helpful.
While I am totally not advocating keeping fish in tanks too small for them; or tanks too small to accommodate them as adults; I don't believe that the stress of a 3" fish being in a 24 gallon aquarium would kill a frogfish. A surgeonfish perhaps or even another species that is an active open water swimmer. Famous Discus breeders not only house but successfully breed Discus fish in 20 gallon long tanks. Tanks of 55 gallons or more are often recommended for Discus fish but the nature of the fish's swimming habits can make them easy to house in smaller quarters.
Another question I have for Bonez is how often the fish was fed and what it was eating. Also how frequent were you doing partial water changes. Bio-load could have played a role in this fish's demise although if PWC's were done on the proper basis (maybe even more frequent then recommended) it may not have been an issue. Also a post of water chemistry readings:
Nitrate
Phosphate
Ammonia
ph/alk.
would be very helpful.
roka64
Aquarium Advice Addict
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Were the red spots along the lateral line of the fish?
I`ve checked several places and they suggest a minimum of 70 gallons for this fish. Swimming room is not the only determining factor here. Water volume is also a big player here. Being a messy eater and the large bioload this fish places on such a small volume of water. JMO
I believe the "70g minimum" is based upon the max size of the inhabitant, which attains almost 10in. in the wild; however, in a home aquarium you can expect 6-7in. so a 40g would probably be ok. Considering the animal was 3", give or take, a 24g is/was suitable for the time being. You would be better off housing a smaller specie such as A. maculatus for future reference. The blisters could have been anything from an injury that was quickly followed by infection to supersaturation of the skin.
tecwzrd said:
I have only 2 damsels - they look fine...color is vibrant, no signs of blisters or spots. :x
macman7010 said:
My water parameters for nitrate and amonia were 0ppm, PH was 8.4, I do not have test kits for phosphate or alk...
I do my PWC's ever thursday religeously - I think it may have been the salinity was too high - I posted another thread about replacing evaporated water - I was using catalina saltwater from the LFS to replace it, which spiked the salt, now im using RO water for evap. I'm just devestated about his death :X
I had him for about a month, maybe longer - he was doing just fine and all of a sudden grew leasons , 2 days later died. ;(
I know I shouldn't have done this - and everyone will yell at me, but I thought it would be okay, (being a newb SW hobbyist) I put about 5-6 hermit crabs from the laguna beach tide pools in my tank ( i live close to the beach)
A.) It's illegal to remove creatures from tidepools
B.) The crabs in the laguna tide pools are from different waters than the FF I had.
C.) I figured if im putting catalina SW in my tank - the crabs that live near catalina or around abouts would live. The crabs are all alive after 3 weeks - maybe they polluted the water in my tank somehow? Maybe an enzyme that they emit when submitted to an enclosed habitat? I definitely screwed up on that one, but I don't want to just take the crabs out and kill them - maybe I need to remove the crabs and place them back into the tide habitat.
I hope some of this information helps :x
An SG increase will put enough stress on stock to kill them but if you were just topping off and the SG didn't get above 1.028 then IMO the slow SG increase didn't do your frogfish in.
Removing hermits from the tide pool was wrong but also IMO it is highly unlikely they could have transmitted any disease but it's still a remote possibility.
At this point since the rest of your stock looks OK I'd leave everything as it is.
Removing hermits from the tide pool was wrong but also IMO it is highly unlikely they could have transmitted any disease but it's still a remote possibility.
At this point since the rest of your stock looks OK I'd leave everything as it is.
seaham358
Aquarium Advice Addict
What did you feed the fish?
what was the SG after topping off with SW
what was the SG after topping off with SW
roka64
Aquarium Advice Addict
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Didn't you have a post where you thought you had seen some worms around his gills or something to that effect?
macman7010
Aquarium Advice FINatic
I totally agree with Tec on both points. A slow increase in salinity would not be enough to kill your frogfish and while totally wrong, the hermit crabs that you took from the tide pool likely didn't have any effect either.
If your water parameters are all in check it's very hard to diagnose what killed him. As I stated earlier and reaffirm now that I have read your water change schedule I dont think the tank, while obviously too small for an adult frogfish was what killed the animal. With the huge variety of parasites, viruses, bacterial infections, etc that can infect aquatic organisms it gets very, very impossible, without a microscope to see what is causing a fish's illness.
That said I would like to make a comment in general about removing marine animals from nature for our aquariums. It's common knowledge that 85% or more of the livestock sold for marine aquariums is wild caught. Although when you purchase wild caught livestock you are doing so from a licensed retailer on the U.S. end and hopefully a licensed supplier on the international end. This means that both parties have rules and regulations that must be follows and not to exceed quotas to try to help manage the amount of livestock removed from the ocean.
When we take animals from the ocean ourselves we make the marine aquarium hobby appear very irresponsible. Sadly, often times when a private party removes a marine animal it later ends up that the same animal is re-released into the wild, a practices that can cause tremendous amounts of environmental instability. These practices can, in a round about way influence the spread of invasive species which in turn can add to ocean destruction and coral reef decline. Simply put, don't do it! It's illegal for a reason and makes for a very irresponsible hobby.
If your water parameters are all in check it's very hard to diagnose what killed him. As I stated earlier and reaffirm now that I have read your water change schedule I dont think the tank, while obviously too small for an adult frogfish was what killed the animal. With the huge variety of parasites, viruses, bacterial infections, etc that can infect aquatic organisms it gets very, very impossible, without a microscope to see what is causing a fish's illness.
That said I would like to make a comment in general about removing marine animals from nature for our aquariums. It's common knowledge that 85% or more of the livestock sold for marine aquariums is wild caught. Although when you purchase wild caught livestock you are doing so from a licensed retailer on the U.S. end and hopefully a licensed supplier on the international end. This means that both parties have rules and regulations that must be follows and not to exceed quotas to try to help manage the amount of livestock removed from the ocean.
When we take animals from the ocean ourselves we make the marine aquarium hobby appear very irresponsible. Sadly, often times when a private party removes a marine animal it later ends up that the same animal is re-released into the wild, a practices that can cause tremendous amounts of environmental instability. These practices can, in a round about way influence the spread of invasive species which in turn can add to ocean destruction and coral reef decline. Simply put, don't do it! It's illegal for a reason and makes for a very irresponsible hobby.
severum mama
Aquarium Advice Addict
I wonder if the feeder fish gave some kind of disease to the frog fish. It wouldn't surprise me, I don't even feed them to any of my FW fish. Also, it is my understanding that it's not good to feed FW fish to SW fish, can't remember specific reasons offhand.
Possible but also unlikely both because of the short duration of feeding FW feeders to the SW fish (which causes internal problems in the long run mostly affecting the kidney) but also because most FW diseases are not transmittable to SW fish directly.
