GBR Sex Challenge

[Wilkes]

Can you tell the sex of this GBR?
With you answer can you please say why you think this so I can try grasp what the key differences are...

 

[Squeekers83]

I was always under the impression that is the anal fin comes to a point its a male and if its rounded like yours in the picture its a female. I am by no means positive about this. But that's my opinion.

 

[Wilkes]

Any other takers?

 

[BHead707]

i was going to guess male. but hey im trying to grasp the sexing thing as well.
they are being bred for the color characteristics and the way that is happening has some of the characteristics now being shown in both males and females

that is what i have heard recently

 

[Wilkes]

i was going to guess male. but hey im trying to grasp the sexing thing as well.
they are being bred for the color characteristics and the way that is happening has some of the characteristics now being shown in both males and females

that is what i have heard recently

Yeah I've heard that too which is why I need expert opinions. Could help explain some happenings in the tank.

 

[BHead707]

there are a few people on here that have bred rams and have alot of experience with them, hopefully they will pop in and get us on the right track

 

[Harryhorse]

The female fish is smaller than the male and have more pink pigmentation on her ventral region. If you look at the anterior region of the dorsal fin, you can see that her fin rays are less developed. It is also common for females to have a plumper body shape and more rounded edging of the tailfin. The back of the dorsal and anal fins have a more pointy edge in the male ram, and the tail fin is also more sharply edged. The male ram can be recognized on his V-shaped tail fin and the elongated second ray that is present in the dorsal fin.

 

[Harryhorse]

The female fish is smaller than the male and have more pink pigmentation on her ventral region. If you look at the anterior region of the dorsal fin, you can see that her fin rays are less developed. It is also common for females to have a plumper body shape and more rounded edging of the tailfin. The back of the dorsal and anal fins have a more pointy edge in the male ram, and the tail fin is also more sharply edged. The male ram can be recognized on his V-shaped tail fin and the elongated second ray that is present in the dorsal fin.

Female,looks like my girls

 

[bs6749]

Wilkes - with all due respect, I personally do not like this ram. I mentioned in another thread where you posted a picture of the pair that I thought this was a male. I still believe this to be the case. The reason that I do not like this ram is because it honestly looks like a very feminine male. It isn't showing any strong signs either way as to what it's sex is.

It has the high dorsal ray seen in males and it BARELY has length on it's pelvic fins to separate it from a female. It has blue specs in the black spots, and to many people this would suggest female, but I've never really gone by this method and I think this is a perfect example of it being a lie. I do not see any plumpness to the fish's belly indicating that there may be eggs forming or being stored there presently, and females generally have so many eggs to the point of her ovipositor showing. Take a look at the area circle in the first picture and then compare it to the one above. There is no "plumpness" observable. Now take a look at the picture of your female. I circled the area that is the eggs. Now look at the original photo of her. It is very hard to notice to the untrained eye, but I have much experience and if I were to bet money on the sex of the ram in question, I would bet that it is a male.

 

[Wilkes]

I apologise if this is getting tedious however I'm trying to solve the issues I'm having in my tank and by knowing the sex it would help me greatly. The reason I posted again and am now glad I did is because I suspected that people would have different answers to the first time. I agree with you in the fact it's showing mixed signs so hopefully you can understand the problems im having as I don't have the trained eye you do.

 

[jetajockey]

I think it's a female also. The spangles on the black dot as well as the dorsal fin shape make me think female, but as mentioned, seems sexing them is becoming more and more difficult Another thing that helps a lot is to have them side by side with similar aged fish.

 

[Gillie]

This fish is most definitely male and this is why, the fish pictured has no pink belly area which would start to appear about 6 months of age or just over 1 inch. Rams and other S.A. dwarves are genetically programed to mature very quickly because in the wild they have a short period of time to reproduce due to wet/dry seasons, predation and insect hatches. the pink coloration is the only surefire way to sex Rams as I have seen spectacular male specimans with the blue "spangles" on the lateral spot. With a proper diet of frozen/live and quality dry food your fish should color up quite nicely, a change to darker substrate will also help the washed out look that he has.

 

[neo-2FX]

This fish is most definitely male and this is why, the fish pictured has no pink belly area which would start to appear about 6 months of age or just over 1 inch. Rams and other S.A. dwarves are genetically programed to mature very quickly because in the wild they have a short period of time to reproduce due to wet/dry seasons, predation and insect hatches. the pink coloration is the only surefire way to sex Rams as I have seen spectacular male specimans with the blue "spangles" on the lateral spot. With a proper diet of frozen/live and quality dry food your fish should color up quite nicely, a change to darker substrate will also help the washed out look that he has.

I agree, I would say 100% male. Yes I bred GBR's for 3 years =)

I would be very surprised if it were female. As you can see, females are more petite.

 

[Wilkes]

Thank you very much for your advice this has helped a lot and would explain a lot of things. Cheers fellas

 

[OBEYtheFISH]

Wilkes - with all due respect, I personally do not like this ram. I mentioned in another thread where you posted a picture of the pair that I thought this was a male. I still believe this to be the case. The reason that I do not like this ram is because it honestly looks like a very feminine male. It isn't showing any strong signs either way as to what it's sex is.

It has the high dorsal ray seen in males and it BARELY has length on it's pelvic fins to separate it from a female. It has blue specs in the black spots, and to many people this would suggest female, but I've never really gone by this method and I think this is a perfect example of it being a lie. I do not see any plumpness to the fish's belly indicating that there may be eggs forming or being stored there presently, and females generally have so many eggs to the point of her ovipositor showing. Take a look at the area circle in the first picture and then compare it to the one above. There is no "plumpness" observable. Now take a look at the picture of your female. I circled the area that is the eggs. Now look at the original photo of her. It is very hard to notice to the untrained eye, but I have much experience and if I were to bet money on the sex of the ram in question, I would bet that it is a male.

Bro you sound like a biology teacher!

 

[bs6749]

This fish is most definitely male and this is why, the fish pictured has no pink belly area which would start to appear about 6 months of age or just over 1 inch. Rams and other S.A. dwarves are genetically programed to mature very quickly because in the wild they have a short period of time to reproduce due to wet/dry seasons, predation and insect hatches. the pink coloration is the only surefire way to sex Rams as I have seen spectacular male specimans with the blue "spangles" on the lateral spot. With a proper diet of frozen/live and quality dry food your fish should color up quite nicely, a change to darker substrate will also help the washed out look that he has.

I completely agree about the coloration, or at least that the presence of pink on the belly indicates that the fish is female 100% of the time. I have however seen some females where this color is either extremely washed out and barely visible or not visible at all. Subsequent laying of eggs confirmed the sex of these fish even though it is possible to distinguish a female from a male with other factors. But the fact is, males never have pink bellies.

I agree that high quality foods would be a benefit to your fish and would help them to color up more nicely, but the lighting in your tank can play just as important role. I've found the incandescent and stock lighting to be among the best for viewing rams and plant bulbs tend to wash these colors away. As for foods, frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp, live blackworms, and NLS cichlid sinking 1mm pellets are some of the things I have used and will use again.

Bro you sound like a biology teacher!

Not quite. I've taken numerous biology and biology related courses, but I graduated with a B.S. in Chemical Engineering.

 

[Wilkes]

Using the regular stock lighting and and high quality colour enhancing food. I believe the Lfs has given me two males as opposed to a pair. Would explain the tension in the tank. Notified the Lfs of my suspicions and will be taking them back when I have time.

 

[bs6749]

LOL. So why even ask us for advice and help if you are not even going to listen to what we (a good board of amateur hobbyists, enthusiasts, experienced breeders) are saying? It is a slap in the face to all of us that have provided our input based on YEARS of experience...some with more experience than others. There is no doubt that the one that you described as the "dominant one" in another thread is a female. Most likely this is just a scenario of the female rejecting the male...it happens. As I said to you in a PM, put another male into the tank and most likely this will encourage a pair to form. Then remove the lone male.

 

[Wilkes]

LOL. So why even ask us for advice and help if you are not even going to listen to what we (a good board of amateur hobbyists, enthusiasts, experienced breeders) are saying? It is a slap in the face to all of us that have provided our input based on YEARS of experience...some with more experience than others. There is no doubt that the one that you described as the "dominant one" in another thread is a female. Most likely this is just a scenario of the female rejecting the male...it happens. As I said to you in a PM, put another male into the tank and most likely this will encourage a pair to form. Then remove the lone male.

Woah you have taken my post completely out of context here, i am by no means rejecting your advice in any shape or form... The picture was of the dominant one... Before people thought it was a female now a male... It's the same fish. Please dont take my posts the wrong way. I am trying to learn like everyone else

 

[bs6749]

Okay, then there is some confusion here. You posted in another thread a picture of your rams and from that and from the private messages we exchanged it sounded like the dominant one was the female, which we had no difficulty in sexing. The female fish (dominant one from what you've told me) appears in my post on the previous page and it is the one with the shorter black rays on the dorsal fin and I circled the eggs and provided the "uncircled" version of the same picture. For further clarification, it is the upper right and bottom pics I am referring to as the female.

The top left picture is not the same fish, which you can clearly see from the extended black dorsal ray, the absence of black on the pelvic fins (unlike your female where it is present), the shape of the pelvic fins and how they taper off differently that the female's, blue facial markings, blue between the black spots on the dorsal fins not matching those on the female, etc. This fish in the top left is believed to be a male by myself and many seasoned ram keepers/breeders. Now it sounds like you are saying that the male is the dominant one, which would make more sense. The male should be pestering the females to breed...that's what we do.