Got some advice from my local pet store

[waynephinney]

For those who haven't seen my threads, let me give you a brief description of my situation.

I bought a fishtank on a whim. I knew nothing about what I was doing and thought it would be a simple process. Nobody at the pet store told me I shouldn't buy so many fish for a tank my size, and the one person who seemed to have half a clue was giving me loads of misinformation.

Needless to say, I made many n00bish mistakes.

So, last night I go into the pet store to get an ammonia testing kit. I talked to the owner (who normally works days, and is one of two people that knows all the animals they sell) and he gave me a little advice.

The first thing he told me was the put the ammonia test kit back unless I really wanted to get into the technicals of fishkeeping. He said that my white cloudy water was related to having too much ammonia because I have too many fish. Combine that with not letting the tank even try to cycle for more than a couple of days and throwing a pleco in with the rest of them, and that's why I have an ammonia problem.

He told me that I was leaving the light on too long. I usually turn it on when I wake up and turn it off when I go to bed. He told me that the only real reason I need the light is to see the fish and the only other time I shoudl run it is for a couple of hours a day just to make sure the fish don't lose their color. Otherwise, I should keep it off.

I told him I was going to do a PWC and that I had just done one two days prior, but he told me not to. He said the damage has already been done and unless I have a large mass of fish suddenly dying then I just need to leave it alone. No feeding for several days at least, give it time to cycle, and keep the light off.

He also recommended that I get more oxygen in the tank, because with that many fish, it could be a problem. He suggested an air stone, so I got a little air pump, and air stone (the fish love to play in the bubbles, especially the guppies), and one of those oysters that opens with the air bubbles. A red tail keeps trying to get in it. It's funny.

So, I'm going to let that go for a few days, no feeding, and give the bacteria time to thrive and try to take care of things.

I was glad he was there, because the woman that usually helps me (about the only other person there who knows what they are doing) hasn't been around in days. The rest of the workers are just kids who wanted a job with animals instead of flipping burgers, so unless it's cute and cuddly, they know nothing about it.

I just wish the owner worked evenings, because then I could get more information more often.

He also informed me about the legality of aquatic crabs and freshwater plants, so that was quite helpful. Explained a lot about why he doesn't carry the freshwater plants (almost got fined once because another species got mixed with what he had).

Anyways, I really appreciate all the help I've gotten here so far, but like any community, I'm going to get a variety of responses. I'm going to try things the way the Petland owner suggested and if the fish die, I'll start over and do it right. If it works, great! At this point it's likely a gamble anyhow, so we'll see what happens.

For those who are interested, I'll keep you posted.

edit: Why doesn't my aquarium information follow my posts anymore?!?!?

 

[talloulou]

If you are cycling your tank with fish in it I would advise doing the partial water changes for sure. That is the only way to keep the ammonia levels from becomming toxic. Advising you to "ignore" the water unless fish start dropping seems like bad advise to me. If you do the PWC regularly during the cycle you shouldn't lose any fish, especially if they are hardy species to begin with.

I would agree with very light feeding or no feeding for a couple of days.

The cloudy water is normal and most new tanks go through this bacterial bloom phase.

I would buy the ammonia test as you can monitor the ammonia during the cycle and know when an immediate water change is necessary.

I would try to avoid gravel vacs so the bacteria can settle.

 

[bosk1]

I would heartily agree with talloulou on all points except the last. I will politely disagree and offer another opinion on that last point. I could be mistaken about this, but I do not believe doing a gravel vac will harm your bacterial--especially since bacteria should also be growing in your filter media. The benefit of doing gravel vacs with your pwc's is that you will be removing fish waste and food particles, which left alone will contribute to your tank's ammonia as they break down.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I also agree that it is bad avice not to do water changes. Fish suffer perminant ammonia burns on their gills due to excessive levels. They are a MUST in fish keeping. But I do agree not to do gravel vacs. Even though most of the bacteria lies in the filter, it also takes hold on the gravel and decor. During the cycling phase you want as much bacteria to form as possible. So by skipping the gravel vacs you are allowing more bacteria to colonize. After the cycle is over, then you can do gravel vacs since the filter will start to be full of the bacteria. But as bosk mentioned, any left over food will settle in the gravel. But if you feed lightly, there shouldn't be any left over food. If there is, then definately vac it out, but don't do deep gravel vacs.

One thing to consider (and it's not saying that this guy has no clue what he's talking about) is that if you do not do water changes, the fish will die. The tank will be so toxic that the will suffer burns and die. What's the next thing that you do? Go buy MORE fish. Thus giving him another fish sale. It's just a point to consider when taking advice from the lfs. Test kits are a necessity in cycling.

 

[jcarlilesiu]

did the owner of the store happen to mention WHY you shouldn't do a pwc? Seems to me a bit odd, being that partial water changes can't hurt the aquarium or the cycle. I agree, I would do one. And why would he be telling you not to buy ammonia test kits? This is a very basic test that all aquarium owners should have, not like we are trying to figure out Co2 or anything haha. Get a test kit, its handy to have if you can afford it, and you will be able to see when problems are coming even after you have an established tank.

 

[QTOFFER]

"The first thing he told me was the put the ammonia test kit back unless I really wanted to get into the technicals of fishkeeping."

I don't get this advice at all. It's like saying, "Put the voltage tester back unless you want to get into the technicals of electronics"!!!
Fishkeeping IS a technical hobby!!!
But have no fear, Wayne, you'll have a PhD-equivalent in water chemistry by the time we're through with you here!

Nonetheless, what your lfs told you is partly true: if you did massive water changes daily, the ammonia would not accumulate, and the good bacteria would not grow as fast.

However, you have live fish in the tank, and ammonia can kill them. I would get the ammonia test kit and test the water daily. Change 25% whenever the ammonia reaches 0.25 ppm. This will protect your fish from permanent gill damage while leaving a bit of ammonia in the water for the bacteria to grow on.

In a week or two, the ammonia will stop coming back after the water changes, and you'll start seeing nitrites. Now you'll have to test for nitrites and do a water change when it reaches 0.25 ppm. A week or two after that, nitrites will stop coming back after the water changes, and you'll start seeing nitrates.

When you see nitrates, but no measurable ammonia or nitrite for a few consecutive days, that's how you'll know the tank is finally cycled. So, you will need the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate test kits; else, how will you ever know you're cycled?

The lighting has nothing to do with the cycle or the heterotrophic bacterial bloom responsible for your white cloudy water. when your tank cycled, the white haze will disappear. Not feeding the fish for a few days will not harm them, but they will continue to pee and foul their water with ammonia. You'll have to do PWC as suggested above regardless.

 

[waynephinney]

did the owner of the store happen to mention WHY you shouldn't do a pwc?

The logic was that if I stop feeding them, the problem shouldn't get any worse. Because of that, if I do a PWC, there will be less ammonia to feed the bacteria, and some bacteria I have already established will be removed, thus prolonging the cycle. I would rather they be exposed to what they're exposed to right now for a shorter period of time than reducing it slightly only to have them be exposed to it longer.

I really don't think this guy is trying to screw me out of money. If he was, then I would end up doing the same to him, because he's a regular customer in my store as well (granted, you don't buy appliances as often as pet supplies, but there's higher markup too).

Anyways, he said that if the fish start dropping like flies, then it's gotten too bad and do a 50%, but if no more die on me, then I should leave it as is to keep from prolonging the cycling.

I'm not saying the PWC would neccessarily be a bad thing, but I can understand the logic of both sides of the argument, and either way I feel like I'm taking a chance.

Anyways, I didn't feed the fish at all yesterday, I'm not feeding them today, and I haven't checked on them yet today. If I get home and the water is even worse (it's only moderately cloudy right now) or if any fish are dead, then I'll gladly do a PWC, but if they are all ok and not showing any glaringly obvious signs of illness or weakness, then I'll let things keep going in hopes that it helps solve the problem.

Is there any reason I should remove the pleco with some of the water from the tank so the bacteria can grow faster?

 

[7Enigma]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME!

Wayne I'm done with your threads. I can't believe after what, 5 or more threads in the last couple of days, the wealth of information and opinions given to you by MANY members on this site, and the fact that we make NO PROFIT on our information, you just throw it all away and decide to let the tank sit? I see 2 things here:

1. You don't care about the fish

2. You are being lazy

Harsh words? Definately. But it just amazes me you are going to ignore everything that has been posted in all of your threads.

"He said that my white cloudy water was related to having too much ammonia because I have too many fish. "

Wayne, I work in a lab. I play with chemicals all day. I have made ammonium chloride (this breaks down in water into ammonia) at concentrations of 100,000ppm and it is CRYSTAL clear. Looks just like water, no cloudiness, nada.

I told him I was going to do a PWC and that I had just done one two days prior, but he told me not to. He said the damage has already been done and unless I have a large mass of fish suddenly dying then I just need to leave it alone. No feeding for several days at least, give it time to cycle, and keep the light off.

Question: I take your hand and put it in mild acid. It starts to bubble and fizz, but your still living. A bit in pain, but its somewhat bearable. Would you like me to keep your hand in or take it out? The damage is already done right, or will it continue to get worse as it eats through your skin?

"The logic was that if I stop feeding them, the problem shouldn't get any worse. Because of that, if I do a PWC, there will be less ammonia to feed the bacteria, and some bacteria I have already established will be removed, thus prolonging the cycle. I would rather they be exposed to what they're exposed to right now for a shorter period of time than reducing it slightly only to have them be exposed to it longer. "

I have a logical question for you.

Why do you have ammonia in your water at detectable levels?

Answer: Because there is not enough bacteria in your tank yet to metabolize it.

Question #2: How would lowering the amount of ammonia in the tank through a PWC effect the bacteria in the tank?

Answer: IT DOESN'T. There is only ammonia in the tank because it cannot be used.

It's like saying you have 100 hoagies, and you get 10 more every day, but you can only eat 3 a day. If you remove 1/2 of these (PWC) you still have many more than you can eat, so the excess is just that, WASTE.

You are killing your fish, plain and simple, and I'm done trying to be helpful.

I apologize to the moderators if this is a mean-spirited post, but I've lost it on this guy.

 

[QTOFFER]

Wayne, I've never met ANYONE who works in a lfs who had the foggiest notion of the nitrogen cycle.

I'll say it again:
What your lfs told you is partly true: if you did massive water changes daily, the ammonia would not accumulate, and the good bacteria would not grow as fast.

However, you have live fish in the tank, and ammonia can kill them. I would get the ammonia test kit and test the water daily. Change 25% whenever the ammonia reaches 0.25 ppm. This will protect your fish from permanent gill damage while leaving a bit of ammonia in the water for the bacteria to grow on.

Not feeding the fish for a few days will not harm them, but they will continue to pee and foul their water with ammonia. You'll have to do PWC as suggested above regardless.

 

[talloulou]

The idea that the ammonia won't build up to a higher level if you stop feeding the fish for awhile has two problems that I can see.....

The first is that it may take longer for the tank to cycle then the fish can survive with no food......

The second is that (I think) fish absorb fish tank water and pee. And I think this pee has ammonia. So not feeding the fish may get them pooping less but it won't stop them peeing........?

Is that correct.....

Anyone?

 

[talloulou]

Ooops Qtoffer beat me to it

Fish do pee!

 

[jcarlilesiu]

Well, I hate to be harsh on the rest of the members of the site, however I must stand on Waynes side of this argument. I can see the logic that he has concluded, that a short boost cycle is no more beneficial than a long drawn out minor one. It does make logical sense, although I do agree it isn't the humane way if done incorrectly.

However the reason for my post is not to take sides in the arguement but to acknowledge that the members need to realize that this is an "advice" site, and it isn't mandatory that the members take the advice, though it is appreciated.

I have went against alot of the advice on the site, and it has worked extremely well in some cases, and in others, the advice was the best option. I don't believe this hobby has a set standard of instructions, and it is important to realize that these decisions is what makes the hobby what it is, and keeps it intresting. You play god over this little eco-system, so allow people to make their decisions. I really don't think anybody is out to harm the fish intentionally.

Wayne obviously has a good idea of what the nitrogen cycle is and how it works, so respect his decision to not take advice please.

 

[7Enigma]

Well, I hate to be harsh on the rest of the members of the site, however I must stand on Waynes side of this argument. I can see the logic that he has concluded, that a short boost cycle is no more beneficial than a long drawn out minor one. It does make logical sense, although I do agree it isn't the humane way.

Wayne obviously has a good idea of what the nitrogen cycle is and how it works, so respect his decision to not take advice please.

I said I was not going to post in any more of Wayne's threads, but I didn't think other member's would be agreeing with the "logic". jcarlilesiu, I understand your reply, and that you are not choosing sides but I need to post this for other members, as well as, for my own conscience.

I truly believe that Wayne and possibly others on this forum do not understand the nitrogen cycle. I'm going to point out some LOGICAL facts, and by facts I mean you cannot argue against them LOGICALLY.

I completely respect someone's decision to not take advice in most situations, but this is not one of them.

Fact: Bacteria can only consume a set amount of food (be it ammonia, or nitrIte). 1 bacterium can eat 1 bacterium's amount of food, and 10 can eat 10 bacteria's amount of food, and so on. 1 bacterium cannot eat 10 bacteria's amount of food in the same period of time.

Fact: A fully cycled tank shows no detectable levels of ammonia or nitrIte. (unless something traumatic has just occurred)

Fact: A higher concentration of acid (ammonia) or biologically damaging agents (nitrIte, nitrAte) in solution causes more severe damage than a lower concentration. (normal tank levels we are talking here i.e. under 100ppm as no fish will survive in this high level of ammonia or nitrIte)

Fact: The ONLY reason you can detect levels of ammonia and nitrIte in the tank are because the current population of bacteria/plants/algae are not great enough YET to use up this food source in a timely manner.

My logical opinion based on the above facts The BEST way to avoid further damage and future fish death is to keep all tank levels (ammonia/nitrIte, and nitrAte) at just ABOVE being undetectable. As long as you can detect a small amount of ammonia and nitrIte in the tank your bacteria have all the food they need to survive and multiply. As their numbers increase the amount of food they require will increase and thus less excess will need to be removed (PWC's), until finally there will be no detectable ammonia or nitrIte levels in the tank.

If you can successfully argue with logic against these points, I will retract my previous comments. Lack of knowledge is understandable, lack of patience/effort is not.

 

[BrianNY]

Unfortunately I have to agree with 7Enigma. Although I wouldn't have stated it as bluntly, it appears wayne wants to take the path of least resistance. If his fish die, so be it. He will get more.

IMO, this has now become an ethical argument and I stand firmly on the side of those that don't see fish in their care as disposable lives.

As far as do fish pee tallouloo, I could be wrong but they have swim bladders, not urinary bladders. They excrete all waste from their anus, much like birds. Something I'll research later. Anyway, the less you feed, the less waste they will produce. It's the same logic shippers use when transporting fish. They starve them for a few days so they aren't poisoned in their little bags.

 

[brant]

Although I don't agree with a decision to let it go and risk the fish i can sympithise with waynes reactions. At first finding out you have done things wrong even though it can be atributid to bad advise from lfs staff that just collect a paycheck it can be a little overwellming and dishearteing and can tend to give you a maybe i should just give up atitude. But thats when we should encourage him to do the correct thing even if you half to let him do what he wants and let him see the results for himself and then tell him the correct way and how it should go. In esence what I think i am trying to say as this is the begginers forum it is the place like people like me and others like me turn to not only for information but some support. How many time has every body started somthing new and got frustrated or overwelmed at first yes we may fail and make the wrong decisions but is the wrong decision the crime? I say no but if you do not learn from making the wrong decision then there is a problem. Just my 2 cents (may not be enough with inflation and all)

 

[jcarlilesiu]

and all im saying 7enigma is that this is the hobby. We may not agree with the methods or procedures some use while maintianing their hobby and you may offer advice as to how you maintain yours. However, to become hostile and throw a fit because people don't conform to your standards or way of doing this is juvinile and unnecessary. I have no idea what the motives are for waynes conclusion on how to establish his tank parameters. And nobody is arguing your "facts", I am simply stating that this is how he has decieded to run his hobby.

I don't think people come to this site always intending to recieve numbered instructions especially since alot of peoples opinons differ. Rather, many people come on this site to get advice, and play the cards that are dealt to them how they see fit. He has heard the evidence, he has heard the explination for the cycle, and this is the road he has decieded to take. There is no reason to throw a fit over it, because he didn't take the advice offered up.

On a side note, Wayne I still think you should do some partial water changes with your test kit that I hope you bought when your levels of ammonia exceed .25 ppm.

 

[verucaproduce]

and all im saying 7enigma is that this is the hobby

Maybe some people aren't cut out for a hobby where life is at stake then. Possibly bowling or something that doesn't require constant attention would be a better choice.

to become hostile and throw a fit because people don't conform to your standards or way of doing this is juvinile and unnecessary

I didn't hear hostility. I heard frustration. I do not think that Wayne understands the nitrogen cycle fully and neither does his friend at the pet store. If you read his posts from just a day or two ago it will become clear that 7enigma was trying to fill him in and guide him along the way. Unfortunately, he chose to take the easy way out.

On a side note, Wayne I still think you should do some partial water changes with your test kit that I hope you bought when your levels of ammonia exceed .25 ppm.

So you agree then?

 

[talloulou]

OOOPS I was reading through this thread and accidently hit the report post tab somewhere! I didn't mean to and while this thread is lively to say the least I don't think anything needs to be reported. Sorry.

 

[Jchillin]

No problem talloulou...

 

[BillyZ]

... but I'll offer a kind suggestion that we prefer folks offer more advice than criticism.

What's done is done. Wayne obviously wants to correct things. Point out what you feel is a mistake and then offer a way to solve the problem created by that mistake. There is nothing gained by criticising folks for the mistakes they've already made.

That said, lets steer back toward the topc at hand.