Help! Cannot find answer to Fishless cycling mystery

[PapaJ]

I need your help. I have looked over everywhere, but I cannot find the answer to this question (which I would think would be common...but maybe I have a mystery on my hands). If I understand, adding Prime to tap will leave only ammonium for a period of time, and/or may release ammonia after a few days if there is no biological filtration. Also, ammonia is required to fishless cycle a tank, broken down eventually to nitrites and then later to nitrates. Some of what Ive read says ammonium should be processed by same bacteria that break down ammonia in first stage of cycling. Ok, so although I have these constituent parts...here is the rub:

Fishless cycling 46g tank. Setup, good substrate, good filtration, raised temp for optimal bacterial growth, increased aeration for same reason. First, I added my tap water (not doing R/O or DI for reasons), then I let the tank process for almost a day, then I added Prime to treat my water. I let the tank with the Prime just 'process' and run for almost two days. I was also waiting to get some good seed material at this point. I had my Ace ammonia ready, etc, and when I looked to test the water before getting the seed material...my ammonia test was empty! Curses, but I just picked up replacement and the seed material. I grabbed a sample and immediately put seed material in. All other water parameters had previously shown to be right, so now I went to test the ammonia levels with new API test. About 4ppm.

Now this either makes perfect sense (Prime having either ammonia or ammonium in my water from what was in municipal supply and/or ammonia was in tap water in chloramine or other form, etc), or makes no sense (as I had not added any ammonia or food or anything), but as API test does not distinguish ammonia from ammonium...it could be in any form, right?

This is my first 'fishless' cycle, so I have a dilemma stemming from the advice that states to add ammonia when you begin to get to your desired level of 2-4, etc. I have read that ammonium is consumed just like ammonia, and yet I have NOT been able to find anyone mentioning that after treating with Prime, you may have the correct level of ammonia already present: as though it would not be a common occurrence. Nor are there any articles which mention the viability of ammonium alone as an adequate or not source for beginning cycle. I could go and get a test and find my free ammonia, but if 'free' ammonia is not needed in this scenario, why bother? However, if free ammonia IS a necessity, and mine is all ammonium...adding ammonia would either be perfect or maybe with my levels of the two would become too high?
Lastly, I have questioned whether my Prime was an older bottle or if somehow I might have chloramine remaining in my water...as it seems that my API ammonia test might show chloramine. Whether relevant to my problem or not, is would it?

Nuts and bolts of question:

1) Can/does tap water treated with Prime leave levels that API test would read as that high, without anything else?

2) If it does/can, then would that mean that my tank has been 'Primed' (lol) coincidentally to just the right amount for cycling?

3a) If yes, is that b/c it is ammonium and that form is adequate for cycling or why?
3b) If no, why?

4) What action should I take to discern and solve the issue (if any)?

5) I added seed material about 12 hours ago, so under what circumstances would I need to find more and reseed (have I starved my bacteria-buddies)?

6) Should I have reason for concern about chloramine in my water or some other weirdness?

Sorry for the long post, but I just don't know where better to find these answers (and maybe it will help others in the future). Thank you SO much for your advice. Just thought of this, I do have activated carbon filters in...and have had them the whole the time.

-PapaJ
Ph: 7.8
KH: 7 degrees
NH3/4: 4
Temp: 81 degrees
One airstrip, one air bubbler, one airstone, and lowered water level to allow for filter to splash and aerate
Minimal light now but receiving some natural daylight
Ecosure cichlid substrate w/argonite
46g bowfront, intended for mbuna cichlids
Redundant filtration system (Penguin 350s until I can get afford a better primary and will keep Penguin 1 at least as secondary)
I do have activated carbon filters in both

 

[armymp327]

lets answer some of these questions
1. no it should not be testing that high unless you have a very high amount of ammonia in your tap, i cant imagine you have that much, i would test your tap to make sure. Chloramines do break down into ammonia, however the amount of chloramine in water is not high enough to break down into 4ppm of ammonia, if anything, with chloramines breaking down because of the prime you'd get maybe .25ppm ammonia.

2. Prime is not for cycling, its just a water condioner to get rid of chlorine, chloramines, heavy metals, and detoxify ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates, it does not contain any ammonia or ammonium.

3. ammonium can be used up by the bacteria, though prime only converts ammonia to ammonium for 24-48 hours max.

4. first test your tap water for ammonia, is there anything alive in your tank? fish or plants? i have a feeling all this ammonia came from the seeded material, possibly by dying off.

5. not sure

6. no alot of people have it, prime breaks down chloramine into chlorine and ammonia, then immediatly gets rid of the chlorine, and converts the ammonia to ammonium for 24-48 hours, though its such a small amount you wont test higher then .25 ppm ammonia.

also with a PH of 7.0 and higher ammonia will always be ammonia unless converted by prime for the 24-48 hours, at a ph of 6.9 or lower, ammonia will always be ammonium.

so lets just start with testing your tap to see why you have so much ammonia already.

 

[PapaJ]

Re

Good point on the Ph, this is where a cichlid setup is different for me. No, I am fishless cycling and no plants. Still, there were probably bacteria in the substrate etc that might have died during period before prime was added. If that is the source and is causing ammonia at that level, then that would be fine since its where I wanted my starting level anyhow.

I'm not sure what you mean by Prime is not used for cycling...I used prime to get any chlorine or chloramine out of my tap water so that it would not kill my seed bacteria. I'll do a check on water and dig in a bit, other ideas welcome

 

[armymp327]

i did not mean you cant use prime while you cycle, i was just saying that is not its sole purpose

after testing the tap water, if it shows 0 ammonia or less then 4 ppm. add some water to a bucket then treat with prime and wait a day, and test that water to see if you come up with ammonia again to see if you really do have high chloramines. thats the only way i can think of fully ruling out your tap as the source of ammonia, and will be good to know in the future when you plan to add fish.