Help - Clowns & Yoyo's flashing & sick. Ich maybe?

[hvacrwe]

HI and thank you. I still have the filter media in a bag. I unknowingly was afraid to put them back in because of the infections or?. After pondering, that isn't sensible thinking. I am still unsure though, what I should be doing with the filters, etc.
Update. After a much needed sleep, the fish are all looking better this am. The Yoyos are up and about with much less flashing, My big clown came out for about 30 seconds but looked vastly improved. Still investigating everyone else. My water readings are:
RON -0
COP -0
TRATE-10
TRITE - between 0-1
HARD- 250
CHLOR -0
ALK-180
CARB-120
PH - 7.6
I was going to do another water change soon but not sure if I should wait. Thank you for all and any help. I hope to be able to do for others, what you all have done for me, in the future when I have gained some knowledge. I am grateful. Unfortunately still very unknowing and unsure.

 

[hvacrwe]

HI and thank you. I still have the filter media in a bag. I unknowingly was afraid to put them back in because of the infections or?. After pondering, that isn't sensible thinking. I am still unsure though, what I should be doing with the filters, etc.
Update. After a much needed sleep, the fish are all looking better this am. The Yoyos are up and about with much less flashing, My big clown came out for about 30 seconds but looked vastly improved. Still investigating everyone else. My water readings are:
RON -0
COP -0
TRATE-10
TRITE - between 0-1
HARD- 250
CHLOR -0
ALK-180
CARB-120
PH - 7.6
I was going to do another water change soon but not sure if I should wait. Thank you for all and any help. I hope to be able to do for others, what you all have done for me, in the future when I have gained some knowledge. I am grateful. Unfortunately still very unknowing and unsure.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Until you can be sure of what your ammonia is at i would change 50% of the water daily. Your nitrite looks a lot better now, but without filter media you cant cycle. Hopefully putting it back in the filter will help and removing it wont have killed off all the beneficial bacteria.

Lets go back to some first principals.

Do you understand what the nitrogen cycle is?

Do you understand what different filter media does? Mechanical, biological, chemical?

Do you know your filters make/model number is? Ill try and find a video of someone setting up your specific filter. Otherwise i can find a generic HOB filter set up video.

 

[hvacrwe]

The filter media was quite yukky and smelled putrid. It's really ok to put it in?? I am not at all clear on the cycle. Mechanical (cloth media, the coarse black stuff, floss), Biological (houses good bacteria, little balls and not sure about this), Chemical (Carbon). On this tank I have (2) HOB Tetra Whisper 60 Power Filters and (2) HOB Tetra Whisper PF 40's. The (2) 40's do the undergravel setup and the (2) 60's filter the tank. I have been using the home made Tetra Whisper media and bracket with Marineland Premium carbon in each Tetra 40 and Marineland Zeolite Blend (2 each) in the 60's. I also put (2) allgones pads in. I have put the black coarse stuff in front of the media and the floss on the side, so the water passes thru the floss last and into the tank. My other tank is a 35 gal with basically the same except (2) Tetra 40's filter the tank and (1) Tetra 60 does the undergravel. I don't think I understand this bacteria thing, because I go crazy trying to keep the filters clean (changing media once or twice a week if they are dirty) . I have seen where it has said to change monthly?? OMG they would be plugged.
When should I feed these poor guys. They are looking hungry finally? By the way, I know I am far from out of the woods. Just happy that I still have 3 of my 5 clowns, 4 of 5 pandas, and all of my Yoyos, catfish and tetras!! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you all!!!!

 

[hvacrwe]

Ammonia and good testing for the water coming today.

 

[Aiken Drum]

So you have 2 HOBS supplying an undergravel filter? An undergravel filter should provide plenty of biological filtration once your cycle is established.

As to your old filter media, if you are uncomfortable putting it in your tank then dont. If it has dried out it probably wont be much use. But at least get some new biological media to use in your filters.

You say you have another tank? Is that still running? You could take a small amount of media or from the filter and put it in your filter, or squeeze a sponge out into your new tank water to speed up your cycle.

Im concerned about you changing your filter media every couple of weeks. Apart from filter floss (the cotton wool like stuff) your filter media should last years. Sponges and bio media should just be rinsed in tank water or dechlorinated water periodically to ensure that water flows smoothly through it. I do mine monthly. The gunk is very good for your tanks cycle. Unless your media is literally dropping to bits dont replace it. Dont over clean your filters.

Good news that the fish look better. Hope things continue to improve.

 

[hvacrwe]

I got my new water kit and just did the ammonia. It is .5 and I am worried. What should I do, water change? 50, 25%? I wanted to ask about media, but later. I am going to continue on testing he other parameters. Thank you so much.

 

[BigRedsReefs10]

Keep testing and doing water changes to keep the ammonia in the .25 range same with nitrite. Water changes are basic math if you change out half the water your levels will drop by half assuming your tap water is clean. And look up a fish in cycle

 

[hvacrwe]

Thank you so much. I am going to do water change then finish testing. I appreciate the quick response. Again, thank you.

 

[hvacrwe]

Hello. I have done 50% water change and new water readings from new kit:
Ammonia:
Tap Water - .5
Tank - .5
Nitrite - .25
Nitrate - 0
PH - 7.6
High Range .4
Those readings made me wonder if I am doing it right, but it certainly wasn't rocket science. I am exhausted, so I am going to repeat tomorrow morning, correction, later on. I remembered that when I took out the filters, I soaked the new media in my other tank water, then put it in the tank with my sick fish. I also read today that is not effective to just use the water. Instead, I needed the actual media that was filtering in the other tank? I want to make sure I have this right. Meanwhile, I don't know what to do with all my filters, so for the next hours til I get up, I am running the 2 for the tank water with the media soaked from the other tank water. I will get into this again when I rise, cause I am dropping now. Thank you so much. I wish I had a bit more stamina, as I am worried that my fish might not be able to wait long for me, but I need just a little sleep.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Those water parameters look ok. The ammonia is a little high but at your pH wont be causing any short term issues. Dont let them (ammonia + nitrite) get any worse than they currently are. Do whatever water changes you need to keep them around where they are.

Soaking filter media in old tank water won't do any good, using the old tank water in a new tank wont do much either except help the fish acclimate to the new tank conditions. Beneficial bacteria lives in your filter media. Generally in the biological media but also in mechanical media like your sponges. As you are using an undergravel filter as well a lot of bacteria would have been in your substrate. What you should have done is transfered filter media from old filter to new or just move the old filter including all its media. Squeezing out sponges into your new tank water can help to.

Now you have your water parameters under some sort of control you need to keep up with testing and water changes to keep them there. Set up your filters properly so that beneficial bacteria has somewhere to live and get your tank cycled. Might take a couple of months until your cycle establishes and your system can look after ammonia and nitrite by itself and then you just need to do water changes to control nitrate, typically keep this below 40ppm. Look at using those bottled bacteria products you have after water changes.

 

[hvacrwe]

Thank you! I am so relieved to hear that the water isn't horrible. Can't sleep, I am worried, so I really want to understand all this. One question about the old/new filter media. Couldn't I do that now? Take the media out of one of the 40's in other tank and put in this new one? Also a handful of gravel? (I have been doing much reading). I still haven't grasped this good bad bacteria and how the cycle works completely, but I am able to follow direction. I thought the crud that builds up in the filter and on the media was the bad stuff. I tried to read the cycle workings but it was difficult to understand. I wasn't able to find an article that wasn't written by a panel of chemists who didn't speak English. I understand (i think), what causes ammonia, the good bacteria turns the ammonia into nitrites, and then I am lost with how they get to nitrates. GRRR. I want to find out more about what is good or bad and more about these under gravel filters, but for now, I will follow directions and save these poor fish.
I guess I have been lucky and I am grateful for that. I have had (2) smaller tanks for a couple years and somehow got by with no illnesses, changing filters too much and not having a clue. I always vacuumed but knew nothing of water changes (even though I was actually doing that). I feel really terrible for my fish now, due to my lack of knowledge on the amazing little guys. Is there an easy way or an article that would simply explain the water cycle? Meanwhile, knowing what I should do with all my filters would be good. Oh my, all I can say is thank you so very much. It's been a depressing time with a light now at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Aiken Drum]

In brief. The nitrogen cycle is the process where ammonia is turned to nitrite by a kind of beneficial bacteria. Unfortunately nitrite is also very harmful to fishes health. Good news is a different kind of beneficial bacteria turns nitrite into much less harmful nitrate. There is also a different kind of bacteria that turns nitrate into nitrogen gas that can just escape the tank, but this is difficult to achieve, so most people rely on plants and water changes to remove nitrates.

This is a good video explaining the nitrogen cycle in aquariums in a bit more detail if you are interested.

https://youtu.be/qMk_SfR0CuU

Cycling your tank is the process where your tank develops beneficial bacteria to convert ammonia and resultant nitrite into less harmful nitrate. You are said to be "cycled" when you have enough bacteria and other processes in the tank (eg. plant photosynthesis) to remove all the ammonia and nitrite that your tank produces.

Ive never used an undergravel filter, so apart from what ive learned and read i cant help much there. Perhaps if you have specific questions a new thread detailing those will get a response from someone with more knowledge.

If your old tank is still running getting some of the old filter material rinsed off and introduced into one of your new filters might help. Beneficial bacteria can survive for weeks even without a foodsource if its kept wet and oxygenated. If its been allowed to dry out or the filters have been turned off then probably not much point.

In reality cycling can be as easy or as complicated as you want. If you start with a small amount of livestock, change a reasonable amount of water weekly, your water parameters will probably never be an issue and your tank will cycle without you needing to know anything about it. If you slowly increase livestock (either adding new fish or your original ones growing) your cycle will naturally catch up. Its only when people start a new tank and add a lot of bioload on day 1 without knowing what to do to keep the water safe while the cycle establishes that issues occur.

 

[hvacrwe]

I did water change last night as I posted, and just did another one followed by testing a bit ago and the parameters are identical except the nitrite is leaning more to the 0 color and a little to the .25. Is this not good??

Thank you for your condensed summary, with just enough detail, to define the Nitrogen Cycle. I also watched the video (plus a couple more) that was informative. I have to admit though, that I was side tracked and impressed with the graphics". He was good!

How this all happened is mirrored in your final paragraph, with one difference. All of the fish in my new 75 gal., were in a 35 gal. They were little and were becoming rather large, when suddenly my Clown was half the depth of the tank. So, I hurriedly got the tank, painted the room earlier than planned, and got the tank setup (I even used some of their water) and in they went. I got them new filters and media. Then I couldn't understand why after a couple days they weren't thrilled with moving from a closet to a huge warehouse. In the interim of setup, I read the Clowns need at least 5 to 6 to be really happy. So for fear that this may be the issue, I got 3 baby Clowns and some. UGH!! If only I had known then, what I know now. If I wasn't so worried about them and sad for the loss so far, I would be embarrassed.


I did some calculating, and this tank has been up and running since about May 15th. My old tank is running presently, with wee fishes. That is the one with the (2) Tetra Whisper 40 PF for the main tank, and (1) Tetra 60 PF for the undergravel. I thought maybe I could take the a filter or 4, out of that one, and put them in the new one? If I should, they have the carbon and Zeolite in them? I also am big on plants. I had a bunch in there, but when all went to hell, I took them out because I was afraid they were decaying and part of the problem. I had thought about trying to put these guys back in their old tank to see if it helped when they first started hiding and acting lethargic, but the bottom of it shattered.

I can tell the Yoyos and Clowns are not happy. Is there anything I can do for them or just keep changing water? I am guessing the ammonia is why the Yoyos are still flashing (not violently like before)?

I just looked closer and I have to remove the last baby Clown has just passed. I know it may not be over yet. One more thing....water changes. How many changes or how often? They seem better after every one for a bit.

Good morning all TGIF and thank you AD!!!

 

[Aiken Drum]

I hate to tell you this but once you get a suitably sized group of clown loaches and they are fully grown, your 75g might not be big enough.

You have 2 issues. You arent cycled and your fish are dying. The uncycled tank will likely be causing issues, and treating the issue doesnt solve the root cause which is the uncycled tank. Ill be honest and say im not that great at diagnosing fish illnesses. I do think the best thing to do is get your water clean and cycle the tank though. Ammonia poisoning doest really have a cure beyond improving living conditions. Aquarium salt is good for nitrite poisoning and this mirrors other advice on your thread.

Taking some filter media will help seed your new filter. Dont remove too much or you risk causing a simular cycle crash in your established tank. Dont remove more than 20-25% of the established media.

Thomas (the guy in the video) is great. Taught me a lot either through his videos or skype chats. Unfortunate he got sacked by Big Als and he is now on Bulk Reef Supplies channel. Some of his projects are very good watches if you have time and are intested.

The carbon removes organic compounds, so that is usually medication and tannins. Unless you need it for one of these reasons you dont need it. Its expensive and it needs replacing every 2 weeks. The zeolite binds ammonia i think. If you are keeping your ammonia at safe levels you don't need it. They are both short term fixes and not solutions to long term problems.

Ammonia at the level you have now isnt an issue, but if was worse in the past then they are now living with the issue caused a few weeks ago.

 

[hvacrwe]

Ok thank you. So, what I got from what you said is continue the water changes and testing the water. I just wanted to know if more (2,3,4 a day) would be better.
I already snagged just one filter, cloth media only, and put it in the new tank.
As far as salt. I believe I did that for almost 3 or 4 (not sure) days. I really thought by the Clown and Yoyo reactions and more flashing, that it was hurting them. I only put 7 tsp. in and then 4 the following day after water changes. If you think I should do that again, I will. But the same amount?

Thank you for your time and help.
I have learned some very valuable info, but in an unfortunate way. You have helped me tremendously. I so appreciate it.

By the way, I keep meaning to comment on my deep down loves (they were the first bottom fish I ever got). My adorable Panda Corydoras. They are such tough little ones and have weathered this so well. I just hope they can keep hanging on.

Thank you for the heads up on Thomas. Yes I am interested and will watch.

 

[hvacrwe]

I forgot to ask. Do you think 3 Clowns would be sufficient? The 2, I have were really happy from little babies up until their move. I didn't know about quantities until after that.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Do whatever water changes you need to do to keep ammonia + nitrite combined around 0.5ppm. Hopefully now you have got them to a safer level you shouldn't need to do multiple changes per day. If you only need to do a water change every 2 or 3 days then thats all you need to do. Be guided by your water test. Dont overdo water changes though, you need some ammonia + nitrite or your cycle will never establish. That 0.5ppm combined is a level that is relatively safe while providing enough food for your beneficial bacteria to grow and establish.

Panda corys are my favourite fish. Im not sure about keeping them with clown loaches though. Not that i think they cant co exist, but i think keeping 2 inch fish alongside 10 inch fish looks a little odd unless you have a big school of the smaller fish. Ive got 15 to 20 pandas in a 200 litre (50g) they are so cool. I would put at least 10 of these together to properly enjoy them.

https://youtu.be/wuNgi65FOu0

Never kept clown loaches, but 5 are what people typically say to keep and 150g tank for them when fully grown. 4 is better than 2 or 3 and would probably be fine.

 

[hvacrwe]

Thank you for the water advice. I understand.

Yes, the Pandas. I just love them. When things are completely back to normal I am going to get enough for 10 or so. I had six up until this. They are great with the Clowns. It's so cute when they swim with my 6" Clown. Someday I will get a video of it. It's quite cute and touching.
What I was saying was my 2 Clowns before the baby ones came along were always together. the littler one would get right up against the bigone and they would swim together. I call it their daily synchronized swim. That's why I wondered if I had to worry about getting more. They were a happy pair. guess I will see how it goes if they can make it through this crisis. I am hoping but preparing for the worst. I love my Yoyos too, and they are not looking well. I will keep fighting and working for all of them with the water changes, etc.

If you have time, I want to do the filter media the correct way. This is my test on this that I think I understand. I use (mechanical) course stuff, black with holes to get the big stuff. The water would run thru that first in my HOB. Then (biological) little round balls and other stuff that will let the good bacteria attach to it, and finally (chemical-carbon) which I won't use unless I am trying to clean up the water with dosed with medicine. Instead I will put the floss or "finishing" stuff last, so the water is crystal clear (do I sound like a TV advertisement?). Well that's all I know and hope it's right, at this point. Oh in addition, they get rinsed in tank water, never tap, and not thrown out until they are falling apart. An exception would be carbon..? Yuk, but I get it.

Thanks so very much!!!

 

[m.j.gomez]

Thank you for the water advice. I understand.



Yes, the Pandas. I just love them. When things are completely back to normal I am going to get enough for 10 or so. I had six up until this. They are great with the Clowns. It's so cute when they swim with my 6" Clown. Someday I will get a video of it. It's quite cute and touching.

What I was saying was my 2 Clowns before the baby ones came along were always together. the littler one would get right up against the bigone and they would swim together. I call it their daily synchronized swim. That's why I wondered if I had to worry about getting more. They were a happy pair. guess I will see how it goes if they can make it through this crisis. I am hoping but preparing for the worst. I love my Yoyos too, and they are not looking well. I will keep fighting and working for all of them with the water changes, etc.



If you have time, I want to do the filter media the correct way. This is my test on this that I think I understand. I use (mechanical) course stuff, black with holes to get the big stuff. The water would run thru that first in my HOB. Then (biological) little round balls and other stuff that will let the good bacteria attach to it, and finally (chemical-carbon) which I won't use unless I am trying to clean up the water with dosed with medicine. Instead I will put the floss or "finishing" stuff last, so the water is crystal clear (do I sound like a TV advertisement?). Well that's all I know and hope it's right, at this point. Oh in addition, they get rinsed in tank water, never tap, and not thrown out until they are falling apart. An exception would be carbon..? Yuk, but I get it.



Thanks so very much!!!

Hello again, you've been given some very good advice reason I've haven't been jumping in. Decided to because I have the 30-60 tetra whispers. The setup I use in them is inexpensive & lasts a very long time without having to buy cartridges every few months. I've also set them up w/cartridge if you still want to use them but its best to remove carbon.
1st pic is where I removed everything from media box, put a block sponge next to impeller & put 3 x plastic scrubbers next to that. The sponge is thick enough to catch everything so no need for floss but can be used if wanted. The pot scrubbers hold a ton of bacteria & still allows for plenty of flow.
2nd pic is where I incorporated the cartridge without carbon. I removed factory bio sponge. Took cartridge off mounts, set at 45° & placed scrubbers front & back to hold in place. This also works well but I found I had to clean cartridge more than first setup.
3rd & 4th pics are the sponges, pot scrubbers & floss I use. The sponges I buy at petco(2pak 5$). The plastic pot scrubbers I get at dollar store(4pak 1$). The poly-fill quilt batting I get at walmart(9x7foot roll 12$). So for 18$(price of 2boxes of cartridges) I have stuff I can reuse for about a yr. Just be gentle when rinsing in tank water.