help... long story. survivors of ich die-off in jeopardy...? re-cycle? ammonia?
Hello,
I know I didn't introduce myself or fill out my profile, but I'm kind of desperate for advice and have a ton of questions, and google isn't exactly answering them. I've often referred to this site and decided to sign up in the hopes of having some things cleared up.
Here's my situation/ongoing horror story. I'll explain it as chronologically as I can, because I undoubtedly made multiple mistakes in this process and would like to learn from them, but I kind of need them clarified so I'm not just guessing. Bear with me while I explain everything as it happened.
About a month ago I stocked a cycled 10g tank with a healthy looking 'king' betta (from petco), and two kuhli loaches + two albino cories from a LFS that I thought was really neat and impressive. My setup also contained some patches of dwarf grass, some taller grass, a couple anubias, a java fern, a peace lily suspended above with roots in the water, a piece of driftwood, and of course hiding places all over the bottom. Substrate of aquarium sand mixed with smooth glass-like aquarium gravel. Aqueon quietflow filter, heater set to 78, and small air stone. I was proud of my setup. Everyone was super happy, very entertaining and playful; the betta never bothered anyone and loved hanging out in the lily roots, the kuhlis were out and about often, the cories loved swimming in the bubbles and filter current, crystal clear water, etc...
So, since everything had been great for about two weeks, I went back to the LFS, half on a whim and half to just wander around and look at the fish, and I asked the guy who had advised me from the get-go if there were any other mid-level swimming fish I could safely add to brighten up the tank. He proceeded to tell me I could put in way more fish, and assured me that he had a 5g at home with 6 neon tetras, a betta, and several catfish. When I decided to go with four neon tetras and a zebra loach, he encouraged me instead to go with five tetras and two more cories (spotted). I must have asked if this would really be okay about a dozen times, but he seemed so confident that in the end I took his word. I brought the six new fish home, acclimated them to the tank water, but didn't quarantine.
Within 36 hours, all the tetras were dead and the rest of the fish super stressed out; the betta and loaches basically looked dead, but would swim when disturbed. I don't need to tell you how it felt to wake up to that...
I called the store to explain what happened and ask 'what now'. I spoke to someone different than the guy who sold me the fish, and they told me that they would have never advised me to put that many fish in that size tank, let alone so quickly, and that stress and an ammonia spike killed them. (You can imagine my frustration and disappointment at the thought that had I just spoken to someone more knowledgeable, this could have been avoided.)
So. I did a 4g water change and brought a sample to the LFS to be tested, and they said the parameters were great, and advised me to do a few more small water changes and just keep an eye on the remaining fish, that they were probably just stressed.
Within a few days, everybody has a super thick slime coat. like, visibly thick. One evening, ich spots appeared on several fish and they basically all looked on the brink of death; hovering at the bottom, on their sides half the time, not eating, etc, ...all EXCEPT for the two tiny albino cories, who seemed to be their totally normal selves, voracious, active, playing, etc... my reaction was that they must not be sick yet, so, thinking I was doing the right thing and desperate not to lose more fish, I took those two out and put them in a temporary 3g setup so I could try to treat the main tank without harming them or having them in with what I assumed were dying fish.
(*a note on the quarantine tank--I set it up when things started going wrong, with a tiny tetra whisper filter, some fresh gravel, and about 10% of the main tank water in with new water, some grass... I knew it wouldn't be cycled or suitable for long term but just wanted to have an emergency backup)
Okay. so THEN, I started treating the 10g, with betta, two cories, and loaches, for ich. After sifting through the endless mixed opinions on the internet and not really feeling enlightened, I formulated a treatment plan, though I didn't have much hope and was convinced I was just going to end up killing them I did a water change of a few gallons, slowly raised the tank temp to 82, added a larger air stone, added 1 tbsp of aquarium salt, and began dosing with Kordon Ich Attack, which their site said was safe for loaches. The kuhli loaches turned translucent and died after a day (they were the worst off from the start), but suprisingly, everyone else began to improve a little. Within three-ish days, they didn't look like they were on the brink of death anymore; still somewhat groggy, but at least eating again, and NO MORE ich spots! But they really didn't perk back up to their old selves.
At this point, I called the LFS to explain everything so far, and see if they had any further suggestions. They told me that I was completely wrong to remove the two healthy cories because they were probably carrying the ich anyway and that when I re-introduced them I would re-infect the whole tank again. They told me to put them back, bring the temperature back down to normal because the heat was too dangerous, and simply continue the ich treatment with meds and salt for a few more weeks. So, yesterday I did a 50% water change, made sure it was at 78, dosed with kordon, re-salted with just over a tsp, and put the two cories BACK in.
Today when I woke up, it was a nightmare all over again. The betta was hiding in a bottom corner and his face has gone from blu-black to pale gray, his eyes are clouded (but NOT bulging), the cories wouldn't leave the surface and were totally spazzing. Thinking these were signs of bad water parameters from putting the two cories back in, I did an immediate 3g change and everyone seemed visibly more comfortable. After a few hours the behavior was back though, so I did another 5g water change, did the first kordon dose that day, and replaced the tsp salt. Unfortunately I had to be gone most of the day so didn't get to monitor them very closely, but upon returning, noticed everyone seemed stressed out, but not *quite* as bad as this morning.
So now......
I have so many questions and concerns, and am pretty wary of effing everything up again, but it seems like if I keep treating the tank the same way, I might end up killing them.
My personal current hypothesis is an ammonia spike (I didn't get home early enough to take a sample to be tested, and don't have kit at home) because the symptoms are similar to those just before the first big die-off; also, the betta's eyes and head might be ammonia burned, and the cories seem red around the gills and front fins. But.... it's only five fish in a 10g...? Why the sudden ammonia? Is the ich treatment --god forbid-- killing off my good bacteria and sending the tank into a re-cycle? Is everyone just so stressed they can't handle it? Could the betta's eyes (again, not bulging--the cloudiness looks almost like cataracts and doesn't cover the whole eye, nor seem to be anything growing on the surface) be a symptom of something else--another parasite or bacterial infection? I don't think there's an oxygen issue, with all the plants and air stone... the filter makes a pretty big splash too. Another thing about the filter--I read mixed opinions about whether charcoal in a cycled filter will actually remove meds from the water or not, and in mine the charcoal is enclosed inside the filter media, so I left it, also being afraid that ripping open the mesh and removing charcoal would cause an ammonia spike...
Also, the longer grasses died soon after the big die-off and the java fern is looking yucky now too; is this because of the ich treatment? will the other plants be affected?
.... do I just need to keep doing alot of water changes? will excessive water changes contribute to the good bacteria/tank cycle collapsing? is it worth it to buy an ammonia neutralizer to temporarily help things stabilize? or some 'bottled bacteria'? aren't more chemicals just going to stress the fish worse? how can I tell if my tank is re-cycling? thankfully I don't see any ich spots, but I know that doesn't mean it's eradicated so I have to keep treating, but should I change my treatment? Should I use something else now that I don't have to worry about loaches? I'm so hesitant to change anything because the fish seem pretty fragile right now, with all they've been through so recently... but I'm wondering if anyone has an idea from this description what's happening in the tank right now and what I should do. I reeeally don't want another ammonia poisoning die off, obviously. (if in fact it was ammonia and overcrowding the first time, and not just sick tetras who made all my other fish sick and stressed...)
really, my biggest fear is that the tank is re-cycling and not keeping the ammonia down, and I don't think the already weakened fish will survive it. what do you think? how can I tell?
well, okay... so on a side note, while I definitely want some specific advice on how to proceed right now, I also want to evaluate the bigger picture here so I can come out of this a little less confused. here are the places where I think, based on research and experience, I went wrong throughout:
-buying a fish from petco (may have brought the ich? I don't know?)
-taking the advice of the LFS employee who was clearly just trying to sell me as many fish as possible, instead of listening to my doubts
-buying neon tetras for a young tank
-not quarantining the new fish
-removing the cories after the die-off and reintroducing them days later
-....what else? please tell me.
This whole process has been an exercise in trying to sift through tons of totally subjective information and pick out what applies to my situation, and learning what to take with a grain of salt.
If you got all the way down here, thank you a million times over for your patience. And thank you in advance to anyone and everyone who replies.
Hello,
I know I didn't introduce myself or fill out my profile, but I'm kind of desperate for advice and have a ton of questions, and google isn't exactly answering them. I've often referred to this site and decided to sign up in the hopes of having some things cleared up.
Here's my situation/ongoing horror story. I'll explain it as chronologically as I can, because I undoubtedly made multiple mistakes in this process and would like to learn from them, but I kind of need them clarified so I'm not just guessing. Bear with me while I explain everything as it happened.
About a month ago I stocked a cycled 10g tank with a healthy looking 'king' betta (from petco), and two kuhli loaches + two albino cories from a LFS that I thought was really neat and impressive. My setup also contained some patches of dwarf grass, some taller grass, a couple anubias, a java fern, a peace lily suspended above with roots in the water, a piece of driftwood, and of course hiding places all over the bottom. Substrate of aquarium sand mixed with smooth glass-like aquarium gravel. Aqueon quietflow filter, heater set to 78, and small air stone. I was proud of my setup. Everyone was super happy, very entertaining and playful; the betta never bothered anyone and loved hanging out in the lily roots, the kuhlis were out and about often, the cories loved swimming in the bubbles and filter current, crystal clear water, etc...
So, since everything had been great for about two weeks, I went back to the LFS, half on a whim and half to just wander around and look at the fish, and I asked the guy who had advised me from the get-go if there were any other mid-level swimming fish I could safely add to brighten up the tank. He proceeded to tell me I could put in way more fish, and assured me that he had a 5g at home with 6 neon tetras, a betta, and several catfish. When I decided to go with four neon tetras and a zebra loach, he encouraged me instead to go with five tetras and two more cories (spotted). I must have asked if this would really be okay about a dozen times, but he seemed so confident that in the end I took his word. I brought the six new fish home, acclimated them to the tank water, but didn't quarantine.
Within 36 hours, all the tetras were dead and the rest of the fish super stressed out; the betta and loaches basically looked dead, but would swim when disturbed. I don't need to tell you how it felt to wake up to that...
I called the store to explain what happened and ask 'what now'. I spoke to someone different than the guy who sold me the fish, and they told me that they would have never advised me to put that many fish in that size tank, let alone so quickly, and that stress and an ammonia spike killed them. (You can imagine my frustration and disappointment at the thought that had I just spoken to someone more knowledgeable, this could have been avoided.)
So. I did a 4g water change and brought a sample to the LFS to be tested, and they said the parameters were great, and advised me to do a few more small water changes and just keep an eye on the remaining fish, that they were probably just stressed.
Within a few days, everybody has a super thick slime coat. like, visibly thick. One evening, ich spots appeared on several fish and they basically all looked on the brink of death; hovering at the bottom, on their sides half the time, not eating, etc, ...all EXCEPT for the two tiny albino cories, who seemed to be their totally normal selves, voracious, active, playing, etc... my reaction was that they must not be sick yet, so, thinking I was doing the right thing and desperate not to lose more fish, I took those two out and put them in a temporary 3g setup so I could try to treat the main tank without harming them or having them in with what I assumed were dying fish.
(*a note on the quarantine tank--I set it up when things started going wrong, with a tiny tetra whisper filter, some fresh gravel, and about 10% of the main tank water in with new water, some grass... I knew it wouldn't be cycled or suitable for long term but just wanted to have an emergency backup)
Okay. so THEN, I started treating the 10g, with betta, two cories, and loaches, for ich. After sifting through the endless mixed opinions on the internet and not really feeling enlightened, I formulated a treatment plan, though I didn't have much hope and was convinced I was just going to end up killing them I did a water change of a few gallons, slowly raised the tank temp to 82, added a larger air stone, added 1 tbsp of aquarium salt, and began dosing with Kordon Ich Attack, which their site said was safe for loaches. The kuhli loaches turned translucent and died after a day (they were the worst off from the start), but suprisingly, everyone else began to improve a little. Within three-ish days, they didn't look like they were on the brink of death anymore; still somewhat groggy, but at least eating again, and NO MORE ich spots! But they really didn't perk back up to their old selves.
At this point, I called the LFS to explain everything so far, and see if they had any further suggestions. They told me that I was completely wrong to remove the two healthy cories because they were probably carrying the ich anyway and that when I re-introduced them I would re-infect the whole tank again. They told me to put them back, bring the temperature back down to normal because the heat was too dangerous, and simply continue the ich treatment with meds and salt for a few more weeks. So, yesterday I did a 50% water change, made sure it was at 78, dosed with kordon, re-salted with just over a tsp, and put the two cories BACK in.
Today when I woke up, it was a nightmare all over again. The betta was hiding in a bottom corner and his face has gone from blu-black to pale gray, his eyes are clouded (but NOT bulging), the cories wouldn't leave the surface and were totally spazzing. Thinking these were signs of bad water parameters from putting the two cories back in, I did an immediate 3g change and everyone seemed visibly more comfortable. After a few hours the behavior was back though, so I did another 5g water change, did the first kordon dose that day, and replaced the tsp salt. Unfortunately I had to be gone most of the day so didn't get to monitor them very closely, but upon returning, noticed everyone seemed stressed out, but not *quite* as bad as this morning.
So now......
I have so many questions and concerns, and am pretty wary of effing everything up again, but it seems like if I keep treating the tank the same way, I might end up killing them.
My personal current hypothesis is an ammonia spike (I didn't get home early enough to take a sample to be tested, and don't have kit at home) because the symptoms are similar to those just before the first big die-off; also, the betta's eyes and head might be ammonia burned, and the cories seem red around the gills and front fins. But.... it's only five fish in a 10g...? Why the sudden ammonia? Is the ich treatment --god forbid-- killing off my good bacteria and sending the tank into a re-cycle? Is everyone just so stressed they can't handle it? Could the betta's eyes (again, not bulging--the cloudiness looks almost like cataracts and doesn't cover the whole eye, nor seem to be anything growing on the surface) be a symptom of something else--another parasite or bacterial infection? I don't think there's an oxygen issue, with all the plants and air stone... the filter makes a pretty big splash too. Another thing about the filter--I read mixed opinions about whether charcoal in a cycled filter will actually remove meds from the water or not, and in mine the charcoal is enclosed inside the filter media, so I left it, also being afraid that ripping open the mesh and removing charcoal would cause an ammonia spike...
Also, the longer grasses died soon after the big die-off and the java fern is looking yucky now too; is this because of the ich treatment? will the other plants be affected?
.... do I just need to keep doing alot of water changes? will excessive water changes contribute to the good bacteria/tank cycle collapsing? is it worth it to buy an ammonia neutralizer to temporarily help things stabilize? or some 'bottled bacteria'? aren't more chemicals just going to stress the fish worse? how can I tell if my tank is re-cycling? thankfully I don't see any ich spots, but I know that doesn't mean it's eradicated so I have to keep treating, but should I change my treatment? Should I use something else now that I don't have to worry about loaches? I'm so hesitant to change anything because the fish seem pretty fragile right now, with all they've been through so recently... but I'm wondering if anyone has an idea from this description what's happening in the tank right now and what I should do. I reeeally don't want another ammonia poisoning die off, obviously. (if in fact it was ammonia and overcrowding the first time, and not just sick tetras who made all my other fish sick and stressed...)
really, my biggest fear is that the tank is re-cycling and not keeping the ammonia down, and I don't think the already weakened fish will survive it. what do you think? how can I tell?
well, okay... so on a side note, while I definitely want some specific advice on how to proceed right now, I also want to evaluate the bigger picture here so I can come out of this a little less confused. here are the places where I think, based on research and experience, I went wrong throughout:
-buying a fish from petco (may have brought the ich? I don't know?)
-taking the advice of the LFS employee who was clearly just trying to sell me as many fish as possible, instead of listening to my doubts
-buying neon tetras for a young tank
-not quarantining the new fish
-removing the cories after the die-off and reintroducing them days later
-....what else? please tell me.
This whole process has been an exercise in trying to sift through tons of totally subjective information and pick out what applies to my situation, and learning what to take with a grain of salt.
If you got all the way down here, thank you a million times over for your patience. And thank you in advance to anyone and everyone who replies.