Help please!!!

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I'm no expert but I think there are a couple of factors that lead to the problems you're having. Bear with me because this is going to be a bit lengthy.

When pH is below 6.5 the nitryfing bacteria become inhibited and have a hard time reproducing. Because you had a relatively light bio load and the tank was established for over a year this wasn't too much of an issue. However this changed when you added the 12 new fish. That is a lot of fish to add at once and would put strain on the biological filtration. Normally the bacteria would reproduce quickly given the additional food source (i.e the ammonia created by the new fish) but because your pH is below 6.5 the bacteria growth is inhibited and the bacteria cannot keep up with the ammonia being added.

However I don't think ammonia poisoning is what killed the fish or is the reason the other fish are breathing rapidly and gasping at the surface. The reason is because of your pH.
It just so happens that when pH is below 7 most of the total ammonia is comprised of ammonium, the much less toxic form of ammonia. By way of background, hobbyist test kits for ammonia provide a measurement of Total Ammonia. Total Ammonia is the sum of toxic un-ionized ammonia (NH3) and nontoxic (or far less toxic) ionized ammonia (NH4). The proportion of total ammonia in the toxic un-ionized form increases with higher pH and temperature. In other words the higher your pH the more total ammonia will be comprised of the toxic form. She pH is below 7 the vast majority of total ammonia will be in the non toxic form. Even after you boosted your pH to 7 a total ammonia reading of .5 would mean that only .003 is in the toxic form (assuming a temperature of around 78). To give you context, a level of .02 is considered enough to cause long term damage and .05 is the point where fish would be in imminent danger (these levels could vary depending on the sensitivity of the particular fish). So this is why I don't believe ammonia is your problem.

So what is the problem? I believe it is the nitrite level in the tank. The high level of nitrite is preventing the fish from taking in oxygen and this is why you see them gasping. It is called Brown Blood Disease. This problem was being made worse by the low pH which was inhibiting the bacteria from reproducing. Bringing your pH up to 7 should help that. Are the fish still gasping? Any improvement? If not and your test kit is still showing 0 for nitrite it could be that the nitrite levels are so off the chart that the API test kit is not able to read the levels and just shows 0. I'm not sure why it does this but I have heard it a few times.

If you are seeing nitrite levels on your test or your fish are still gasping resting on gravel then you need to take action. Water changes would help temporarily reduce the nitrite level but it may also reduce your pH again and slow down the cycle. Sodium chloride (common salt) is known to be used as a way to negate the impact of nitrite but I'm not sure what the steps, dosing, etc so I couldn't help you there. Another option would be to use a product called Prime by Seachem which detoxifies ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

So that is what I'm thinking. Just my opinion. :) I hope you find all of this helpful. Keep us posted.
 
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Thx guys glad u found the info useful. The Aquarium Detective....I like it...I would watch that! Lol

Lea - something I forgot to mention. As OS suggested you should pick up a KH and GH test kit. Your pH could be crashing because you have low kh. If you're not able to get a test right away another option for now is to see if you can get a water report from your municipality. Often you can download it from their website. It will give you all sorts of parameters for your tap water. You want to look for something like kh or total alkalinity. Post your findings here and someone will be able to help you interpret the reading.
 
Thanks so much for help :)
The fish seem to be doing a better than before, not gasping at the top or sitting on the gravel, either just swimming or swimming close to the top. Did measurements again last night.
Ph 7.2
Amm-2
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-20

So did 50% water change, I haven't tested again, will do today.
What is municipality? I'm in Australia, I think we have the water board but I don't have access to that info cause I'm renting the house.
 
Glad to hear it :). I have a few more thoughts for you. But first what temperature do you keep your tank?
 
So I have bought the gh/kh test. So am I testing the aquarium water/and or tap water?
 
Ok, so my tank is usually around 26-27% Celsius so around 78.8-80.6 F. I have tested after 50% water change and vac gravel parameters are
PH:6.4
Amm:0.50
Nitrite:0
Nitrate:20
KH:3
GH:6
The info with kh/gh kit says to aim for 3-6 so I'm guessing that's ok although OS mentioned 10-12 to be perfect so I am below if that's the case. PH down again!!!! Unsure of what to do now, tank is quite cloudy from baking soda already so not sure if I should add more? If it ok to wash out filter sponges in tank water again or will that bring the bacteria down again? There seems to be a lot if sentiment on the gravel, vac gravel today still looks the same........ Ahhh!!!!! So frustrating!!! I have taken out everything from the tank bar 1 decoration, filter and an air stone so I don't know what could be causing the lower ph?
 
Hi Lea,
10-12 KH is perfect for livebearers but if you keep it at 4 dKH you will be fine. Your GH is great. Keeping your KH at least 4 helps avoid pH swings as the KH buffers the water. Go easy on the bicarb. It is a saving fix for your BB. You'll need to get some crushed coral and put in your filter to gentle raise your pH & KH on a more permanent basis than bicarb. How much bicarb did you add? OS.
 
OK 2 tsp is not too much. For the Ammo, lets look at your filter. What size is it and what do you have in it. ie. Foam block, fiber filter pad, bio beads or ceramics? OS.
 
The filter is aqua one maxi 104f. It has 2 filter sponges in it.
 
OK I looked up your filter. I'm sorry but IMO it is not enough for your tank. Note that the advertised flow rate is what the filter does empty. This is a common way filter co's cheat on there flow rates. Could you get the Aqua Clear 70 over there? Or even the AC110. The two foam only inserts in your Aqua One will hold some BB but not nearly as much as the AC. You need the coarse filtering foam block(coarse filtration), then a layer of fiber filter pad(fine filtration) and then a mesh bag of bio media(ceramic like porous beads) on top. The bio beads hold a huge amount of BB that converts the ammo quickly. You need a filter flow rate of 4 times the tank's volume in one hour. For your tank that would be about 120-160 gallons per hour. The cloudiness, ammo and pH drop are most likely the result of under filtration. Your jus not able to convert your organic waste fast enough right now. OS.
 
I totally agree with OS. Your filtration is not enough for a 40g tank. You have probably been getting away with it all this time given the light bio load you had but once u added the guppies the filtration became insufficient. You should definitely look into upgrading as this should help with the water parameter issues your having.

The good thing is with your ph and temp you don't have to worry too much about the ammonia right now. When you bring your ph back up to 7.2 keep an eye on total ammonia and don't let it get above 2. At a ph of 7.2 and temp of 28c a total ammonia reading of 2 would mean that the toxic ammonia in the tanks is .02 which is the starting point for long term damage.

Once you get the new filter I would use both for a couple of weeks to help get the new filter established. Normally the bacteria wouldn't just automatically migrate to the new filter but since you have excess ammonia your new filter should establish a bacteria colony quickly. You could also cut a piece of the sponge from your old filter and put it in the new one as a way of quickly seeding it.

To answer some of your other questions cleaning the sponges in old tank water shouldn't harm the bacteria as long as you're not to vigorous with it. That said it's not something you want to be doing too often either.

When I said municipality I just meant your town, city, etc. Whatever government agency is responsible for supplying your water. In the States the water reports are publicly available and can usually be found on a website. It's available to anyone, you don't have to be the homeowner. I realize you already purchased your GH/KH test but it's still useful to have a water report if you can get it.

Keep us posted. How are the fish doing?
 
Rak9378 said:
I totally agree with OS. Your filtration is not enough for a 40g tank. You have probably been getting away with it all this time given the light bio load you had but once u added the guppies the filtration became insufficient. You should definitely look into upgrading as this should help with the water parameter issues your having.

The good thing is with your ph and temp you don't have to worry too much about the ammonia right now. When you bring your ph back up to 7.2 keep an eye on total ammonia and don't let it get above 2. At a ph of 7.2 and temp of 28c a total ammonia reading of 2 would mean that the toxic ammonia in the tanks is .02 which is the starting point for long term damage.

Once you get the new filter I would use both for a couple of weeks to help get the new filter established. Normally the bacteria wouldn't just automatically migrate to the new filter but since you have excess ammonia your new filter should establish a bacteria colony quickly. You could also cut a piece of the sponge from your old filter and put it in the new one as a way of quickly seeding it.

To answer some of your other questions cleaning the sponges in old tank water shouldn't harm the bacteria as long as you're not to vigorous with it. That said it's not something you want to be doing too often either.

When I said municipality I just meant your town, city, etc. Whatever government agency is responsible for supplying your water. In the States the water reports are publicly available and can usually be found on a website. It's available to anyone, you don't have to be the homeowner. I realize you already purchased your GH/KH test but it's still useful to have a water report if you can get it.

Keep us posted. How are the fish doing?
Click to expand...


I'm just gonna throw my 2 cents in on this also. The biological filtration was obviously sufficient before the problem arose. Bacteria colonise every surface area in the tank. The filter media contains many cubic feet of surface area that makes it a good source of biological colonisation.

I am more concerned about the infrequent water changes before this problem arose. I do agree that actually mechanical output flow from the filter falls short of the recommended 4 x turnover. That is also a minimum btw for the average community tank. But I don't think the lack if surface area the biomedia can hold is the problem.

The chemical reaction that takes place when the bacteria get to work uses up kh and creates acidity. This reduction in alkalinity and increase in acid over time would naturally lower ph levels if the water is left to long before a change. If you have live plants this would also add to acidic carbon dioxide being produced at night time. Especially so if there is little surface agitation provided by mechanical pumps


I think the water ph has been falling for some time slowing down the Bacteria. The addition of new fish like has been said has put extra strain on the bacteria if the ph has fallen below the operational range of the bacteria then there would be no nitrite because it has stopped working. There may have been a huge build up of TAN ammonia and a water change would dilute this but also bring your ph back to its normal range changing the ammonium back to ammonia burning the fishes gills causing them to gasp.

That's my thoughts anyway.
 
Caliban07 said:
There may have been a huge build up of TAN ammonia and a water change would dilute this but also bring your ph back to its normal range changing the ammonium back to ammonia burning the fishes gills causing them to gasp.
Click to expand...


Hey Caliban. Generally I agree with your post except for this part. My understanding is that when ph is under 7 TAN is going to be mostly comprised of ammonium. The drop in ph wouldn't convert ammonium to ammonia. It's the other way around. That is my understanding anyway.
 
Yes agreed. Thing is, if the high TAN is made safe because ph was <6 you add 12 fish and do a water change. Alkalinity would be restored and acid absorbed raising ph. With this ph rise the toxic % of free ammonia would go up and all fish would be gasping at the surface.

I dunno there's a few possibilities as to what's happened but this would be my guess.
 
I would agree that as the pH rises so would the % of toxic ammonia (NH3). But I'm thinking the level of toxic ammonia present still wouldn't cause that kind of trouble. Remember at a ph of 7.2 ( the highest the OP has stated it went) and temp of 28c, even a total ammonia of 2 would mean that the toxic level of ammonia is only .02. This is generally viewed as the starting point for longer term damage but it's really .05 where more immediate damage is caused. Here are some links to research I have read and how I am coming up with these readings...

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/m/#publication?id=fa031

https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/111/

I still think it was the Nitrite level that was causing the fish to gasp for air. The OP indicated that nitrites were as high as 5 which is highly toxic. But as you say it is hard to know for sure. :)
 
Rak9378 said:
I would agree that as the pH rises so would the % of toxic ammonia (NH3). But I'm thinking the level of toxic ammonia present still wouldn't cause that kind of trouble. Remember at a ph of 7.2 ( the highest the OP has stated it went) and temp of 28c, even a total ammonia of 2 would mean that the toxic level of ammonia is only .02. This is generally viewed as the starting point for longer term damage but it's really .05 where more immediate damage is caused. Here are some links to research I have read and how I am coming up with these readings...

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/m/#publication?id=fa031

https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/111/

I still think it was the Nitrite level that was causing the fish to gasp for air. The OP indicated that nitrites were as high as 5 which is highly toxic. But as you say it is hard to know for sure. :)
Click to expand...


What if TAN went as far as 8 ppm? And there was a 50% water change to bring it to 4ppm? What is the the toxic level then?
 
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