I almost cooked my goldfish w ICK

[smallworld]

30 gallon tank
6 goldfish (this may sound crowded but they were in a 10 gal before this)
biowheel filter w two carbon filters
oxygen
heater set at 73

ph 7.4
ammonia 1.0 (lowest it's ever been)
nitrite 0
nitrate 80

I've finally gotten the aquarium to almost 0 ammonia but then I noticed the ICK. I put the blue water medicine in & raised the temp to 82 like it recommends but when it looked like the Ick was gone, I forgot to lower the temp for 3 days. Last nite they were covered in ICK, gasping & not moving. I realized my near fatal mistake, frantically exchanged out about 6 gallons for cold water & within about 30mins they were swimming again.

This morning they're almost back to themselves except the ICK is still there. What is the best way to get rid of ICK? They've had it about 3x in the last few months.
Also, when ICK is present they recommend to replace the carbon filters but the biowheel should also be replaced right?

thanks for any advice
I know I'm lucky they're still alive

 

[Mr. Limpet]

Not sure what you're using but Quick Cure has always worked for me and no need to raise the temp. One thing I do is continue treatment 5 days after the last signs of ick disappears. I've read that just because spots are gone, the ick isn't.

 

[jsoong]

The raising the temp is for tropical fish. <Always read the general instructions in boxes, etc with care ... almost none are specific for goldfish!>

Although you can raise the temp in goldies (to speed up the ich cycle & decrease treatment time), you need to have extremely good aeration or they get into trouble.

The most important thing about treating ich is to treat for enough time. <That and clean water!> Ich can hide in the substrate for a long time (and can over winter in a pond). If you don't get rid of all the ich cysts, they will keep coming back.

Most of the meds are geared towards tropical fish, where a shorter treatment is possible. In a cold water tank, ich may last much longer. It is generally safer to treat for at least a week or 2 after the last spot is gone in a goldies tank at mid 70's. <The colder the tank is, the longer you need.>

Quick cure is a good treatment, but I am a bit leery to use that for such a long time. I personally have good results using salt at 0.3%. <I will do a salt dip also if the infestation is heavy.>

This is a pretty good write up on salt treatment:
Treating Ich with Salt

I would keep the salt treatment for 3 weeks after the last ich spot. In addition, you must keep clean water. Keep doing the water changes to keep the ammonia low. Poor water condition stresses the fish & no amount of meds will help if the water is bad.

 

[smallworld]

Another emergency

Thank you so much for your posts.

I finished the ick removal with the quick cure Monday nite. Exchanged 25% water as recommended & tested.
All numbers exactly the same as previous post above. Fish were happy, all was good.

Since this morning ALL fish are at bottom left side of tank. I thought they were rallying around a black moor who seemed the most lethargic but when I make the motions of feeding them, they don't swim up & a few of them barely move.

These are fantail goldfish & I don't want to lose them.
I will try the salt cure for the ick but wanted to give them a break from the hot water trauma and all the blue ick medicine.

Please help I have no idea what to do. They look fine, no ick spots, their fins aren't frayed. They're just not moving.

water temp 73 degrees

thanks so much for any advice

 

[Mr. Limpet]

Thank you so much for your posts.

I finished the ick removal with the quick cure Monday nite. Exchanged 25% water as recommended & tested.
All numbers exactly the same as previous post above. Fish were happy, all was good.

Since this morning ALL fish are at bottom left side of tank. I thought they were rallying around a black moor who seemed the most lethargic but when I make the motions of feeding them, they don't swim up & a few of them barely move.

These are fantail goldfish & I don't want to lose them.
I will try the salt cure for the ick but wanted to give them a break from the hot water trauma and all the blue ick medicine.

Please help I have no idea what to do. They look fine, no ick spots, their fins aren't frayed. They're just not moving.

water temp 73 degrees

thanks so much for any advice

What that kind of bio load, you should do water changes every 2 days and add a filter till you get them in a bigger tank, or rehome some. It's the reason your ammo is so high and why they're so lethargic/unresponsive/not eating.

Sent from my Epic 4G using Aquarium

 

[fishguy1]

I had a heater malfunction in a tank that had a goldfish in it. The temp was at 90 degrees, and I had no idea by looking at it - none of the fish were at the surface, there was no gasping. The fish weren't as active as usual, which is what drew my attention.

 

[smallworld]

thank you for your replies ~ these fish are a mystery I just returned to find them
swimming & frolicking but I can now see they still have ick.

 

[Mr. Limpet]

thank you for your replies ~ these fish are a mystery I just returned to find them
swimming & frolicking but I can now see they still have ick.

One thing to try is test when they're normal, and when they're lethargic and compare the results. May provide some insite, may not but it can't hurt.

Yep, that's why once I start a med, I keep it going to the end.

Sent from my Epic 4G using Aquarium

 

[jsoong]

The problem with ich is that the parasite has a life cycle that is partly hidden, so they can still be there & not have visible spots. During treatment, only the theronts are susceptible to the drugs (or salt). The ich spots on the fish are protected by the fish's slime coat. After the spots falls off, the ich cysts multiply in the gravel & hatch into thousands of new tomites. These are microscopic & you can't see them. If there is no med in the water when the theronts hatch, they can quickly re-infect the fish. They will not be visible until they grow big enough (usu. a day or 2).

It is quite possible that the fish were being attacked by a new swarm of theronts when you see them being lethargic. <The ich can also attach to the gills, fish get really lethargic when that happens.> Now, you are just seeing the result of the attack (spots) a day later.

That is why it is important to keep up a level of meds (or salt) in the tank for at least a week after the last spot falls off, to prevent re-infection.

Also, clean water is a must. Fish in crowded condition or in poor water have suppressed immunity and cannot fight off diseases. Meds will not help if the water is not good. I would suggest doing daily pwc's during the entire treatment period.

 

[smallworld]

Surviving... barely

thank you so much for your help!

I have some more questions...

Yesterday: pwc & 3 capfuls of quick cure ~ just a quick fix bc I've already done 2 full treatments & it didn't work

Today: pwc & 240 grams (8 grams per gallon) of API Aquarium salt
Water temp: 74
Aeration: bought 40gal air pump & 10gal ~ so they have 50gal worth of oxygen
Ammonia: 1.0 (How much water do you have to exchange to get rid of Ammonia? I siphon the gravel every time & the poop never ends)

So now: I will continue the salt treatment at 240 grams every 12 hours for 3 weeks past the last ICKy spot?

And do a pwc each time? pwc = 20%?

And what about water temp? I'm afraid to overheat them. The ICK article says to raise the temp to 80. Would I do this slowly & then keep it there the full treatment?

Lastly, should I replace the carbon filter more often during this process? Does it capture ICK & send it back into the tank?

Lastly, How much do I owe you?
seriously, if you can help me save my fish, I'll donate to your favorite charity!

 

[doogle]

youshould toss the carbon/filter(sounds like you could use a new one anyway), altho if you took all fish out of a tank for a month the ick should disapear from the tank after some time/ depends on temp...do pwc if meds say to before adding more meds...slowly raise temp, but gold fish wont like it, so do it and get rid of the ick, use salt too, continue meds/salt for 3-5 days longer if colder(days after spots are gone) then take that heater out, goldfish dont need it. you shouldnt have carbon in tank while medicating... try using polyfiber in filter...no carbon, untill your done with meds.

 

[ejaramillo01]

Ammonia: 1.0 (How much water do you have to exchange to get rid of Ammonia? I siphon the gravel every time & the poop never ends)
And do a pwc each time? pwc = 20%?

Because your ammonia level is to high, do a 50% PWC in the morning, and another 50% PWC at night, the idea is to do as many as needed to maintain the ammonia levels no more than 0.25 ppm.

 

[jsoong]

Disagree with heater not need for goldfish!! It all depends on how cold your winter nights get ....

As far as your temp of 74, that is fine for now. It is stressful to goldies to raise the temp to high 80's need to kill ich outright, so you just maintian subtropical temp (75-78) to hasten ich cycle to shorten treatment.

pwc is as much as needed to keep ammonia less than 0.25. So if your ammonia is 1, then a 75% pwc is in order. <I don't worry about large pwc, as long as the water is temp & parameter matched, and I put the change water in slowly - over 15 min or so, so fish don't get shocked. Some people said 50% is max, so to get to a 75% pwc a day, you need to do 2 x 50%>

As for salt - what you want to do is maintain a constant concentration of 0.3%. If your tank has no salt to start with, then 360 grams of salt will raise the level to 0.3%. Generally, it is best to do this over 24 hrs ... ie add 120 g every 12 hr.

Once you get to your target level, then you add in salt based on your pwc's. <Basically, you want your change water to have the same salt concentration as your tank water.> So, if you have 360 g of salt in your tank, and you do a 50% pwc, you will need to add 180 g of salt to your change water.

More info:
Treating Ich with Salt

You should have removed the carbon BEFORE adding the quick cure - the carbon capture the meds in Quick cure, rendering it ineffective ... And you should ditch the carbon after every med treatment, otherwise the carbon would have all sorts or meds in it, causing unpredictable reactions.

Ich don't sit in the carbon. The cysts actually hide in the gravel substrate. One way to reduce reinfection is to treat the fish in a bare-bottomed tank, and really vacuum out the bottom of the tank with your pwc.

Oh, and no need to pay me ... But Doctors without borders (medicins sans frontiers) is one of my fave charity ....

 

[smallworld]

As the Smallworld Turns

ammonia: .5
ph: 8.8
nitrite: crazy dark blue color not even on the chart
nitrate: 5.0
Tank temp: around 74 - dumb heater gets cold at 77, warm at 72
50% water changes everyday
edit: no carbon filter for duration of salt treatment

I've been salting at 0.3% for 12 days.
The last ICK was spotted 5 days ago.
Since about 8 days the fish came back to life from laying on the bottom.

Since yesterday, two of the fish have gone back to the bottom & move only to eat. They don't have ICK spots but their fins are clamped & some of their poop is transparent.

I guess the salt has screwed up my ph, nitrite & nitrates which were perfect 12 days ago?

What should I do? Should I phase out the salt slowly? The ICK could still be present.

Any more help would be so helpful.
thank you kindly
smallworld

 

[jsoong]

Salt does not kill the biofilter, so you can't blame the high nitrite on that.

I suspect that your tank was never totally cycled (since you were struggling with ammonia, you were at the first phase of the cycle.) Now you are at the 2nd phase. If the nitrite is off the scale, then you need to bring it down pronto! Your aim is to have nitrite no higher than 0.25.

<Nitrites binds to hemoglobin & prevent O2 uptake. The fish acts like they are starved of O2 & are extremely lethargic.>

I would suggest doing a 75 or 80% pwc. You have to make sure that the change water is parameter matched. <It has to be the same temp, pH, salt level, etc.> If it is not, then a series of smaller pwc's (say 50% every few hours) is safer. Before you do that, ensure that the kit is reading properly. Test your tap water & make sure it can read zero. <You don't want to do emergency treatments based on an erroneous test result.>

ATm, I think you should maintain the salt level. It is best to change one thing at a time. So fix the water first before changing anything else.

I am not sure why your pH is drifting. Is there anything in the tank that is causing that (rocks, sand?) Is your pH test good? <Again test your tap water .... your tap water pH may be drifting from spring runoff, etc.> With all the pwc's you are doing, i would expect the tank pH to stay close to the tap's ....

Also, make sure you are maintaining the 0.3% salt. Double check your calculation for the pwc's to make sure you are not adding more than you should. <FYI, salt does not increase pH. It actually decreases it .... 0.9% salt solution has pH of 5.5, but a tank with proper buffer should see much less drop ....>

 

[smallworld]

thanks jsoong

i used an acid buffer from the LFS & all the test results came back reasonable except ph was lowered significantly
ph 6.0
nitrite 0
nitrate .5-10
ammonia .25

the LFS told me not to do so many water changes & use the carbon filter again but then again they don't use the salting method for ICK either

good tip on testing tap water which has ph 8.0 & ammonia 1.0!

i'll keep the salt at 0.3% & continue pwc's but the same two fish have been lying low except for food for several days... we'll see

thanks for all your help!
smallworld

 

[jsoong]

Personally, I wouldn't have used the acid pH buffer, esp. when it dropped the pH down that much. It is stressful for the fish to have the pH bouncing up & down like that. ... no more than 0.2 unit change a day (preferably no change at all, even if the pH is out of "ideal" range.)

I would watch the pH of that tank daily (if not more often). Unless you managed to completely replace the buffering system, it is likely that your pH will bounce right back up as the pH chemical wears off. Your goal is pH stability, rather than a set pH. Goldfish can live in a wide range of pH, even though its ideal is said to be 7.5....

Ammonia of 1.0 in the tap? Is that before or after dechlorinator? If it is after, that is from the chloramines (disinfectant added to the water). This is a false positive, as the ammonia from chloramine is bound & harmless.