"I Love You" Parrotfish; say it isn't so.

[CaysE]

i don't blame or condemn the seller. i blame and condenm the people who think it is cute to stick big needles and ink in a fish.

Most consumers are under the impression that the color is on the outside of the skin.

 

[guppy12]

Im embarrassed to be a human...
thats thats ridicules

 

[plecoperson]

One question who will decide what is wrong and right?

There are two different subjects raised in your post; the selective breeding of fish causing them to be "deformed" from their wild state is one issue, and not one I am discussing here.

Repeatedly injecting an animal of any kind with a needle is, to most minds, painful and stressful for the fish. Some might argue still that fish don't feel pain or distress, but I think it's better to err on the side of assuming they do.

I did not harass the seller; he seemed fine with discussing the fish, and I made it very clear that I wasn't being critical of him. It makes things more complicated to speak up, and it does open you to possible criticism and unpleasantness, but I think it's important not to let our anxiety about these kinds of things prevent us from doing what we think is right.

 

[Reefmonkey]

I didn't realize that blood parrots are a product of genetic engineering through selective breeding and other means...

They aren't really genetically engineered; that term usually relates to using recombinant dna or other means to directly alter the genome; nor are they just selectively bred, which implies breeding to bring out the expression of genes already found in the genome to exaggerate certain phenotypes. Bloodparrots are a hybrid, a mother and a father of different species were bred together to produce a creature not found in nature, much like a horse and a donkey are bred to produce a mule, or a lion and a tiger are bred to produce a liger for its skills in magic.

I have no problem with the seller doing so. One question who will decide what is wrong and right? Maybe only those with aquatic biology degrees should be able to keep fish. These things always bother me. I don't like to see it any more than the next but is it any different than what many "reputable" breeders have done to other fish. Honestly it isn't that much but only accepted. Just take a look at some of the bettas, guppies, angels, goldfish, GBRs, etc... the list goes on and on. I am all for education and expressing ones views on matters but condeming, harrasing, etc... should not be acceptable.

Well, since I do have a biology degree I'm off the hook, whew . I think you are right that hybrids like flowerhorns and blood parrots are on a continuum with fancy strains of other fish, and I am not a fan of anything on the continuum. However, while I am digusted by goldfish with telescope eyes and bodies and fins so disfigured they can hardly swim, I am not about to deny that others have a right to keep and enjoy them, or hybrids, if that's their thing. I will, however, caution people against making too many hybrids, or even doing too much selective breeding in fish other than the traditional fancy strains. These selectively bred strains, say of peacock haps, could then cross back into wildtypes and contaminate the wildtype breeding stock. For some species of fish, the wild populations are threatened, such as the Lake Victoria cichlids, and our aquarium stocks may be needed to repopulate, so it would be best to keep the stock as genetically close to wildtype as possible.

But that is neither here nor there to this discussion. I certainly hate hybrids, but I am not going to go on a crusade to get them outlawed. I will, however take a stand against the cruel injection or mutilation of adult fish. That's where I draw the line. I think there is nothing wrong with respectfully educating sellers about the cruel practice of injecting fish with dyes. I emphasize the word respectfully, not placing blame, saying things like "I'm not sure if you are aware..." because if we attack these people we will turn them off, make ourselves look like fanatics. They will be much more likely to listen to us and thoughtfully consider our concerns if we are polite.

 

[WaterPond]

fish are beautiful the way they are, why do they have to screw them up like that. Why is there so much about cruelty to animals(dogs,cats, meat animals) but nobody is stopping this! Poor fish. I am disgusted.

 

[JRagg]

or a lion and a tiger are bred to produce a liger for its skills in magic.

Had I been drinking milk (whole milk, because I can) it would have just shot out of my nose.

Now on topic,
Dyeing fish is disgusting. I have no problems with the messages sent to the seller since they were kept in good taste. It looks like the seller will probably refuse any of these kinds of fish from his distributer in the future. Mission accomplished.

I guess I don't see what's wrong with hybrids. Would you say that a hybrid is the equivalent of a mutt dog? I know there are tons of "mutt" arlc out there. I'm not meaning to further inflame the discussion.

 

[Reefmonkey]

I guess I don't see what's wrong with hybrids. Would you say that a hybrid is the equivalent of a mutt dog? I know there are tons of "mutt" arlc out there. I'm not meaning to further inflame the discussion.

No, I wouldn't call a hybrid the equivalent of a mutt. With a mutt, you have parents of the same species, Canis familaris, just of different breeds, or strains, so if you wanted to find an equivalent in the fish world, it would be breeding an oranda with a moorish or something like that.

Hybrids like flowerhorns and blood parrots are actually from mixing closely related species, like getting a human and a chimp to breed (thank god that won't work - I'm already hairy enough.)

 

[hc8719]

i don't blame or condemn the seller. i blame and condenm the people who think it is cute to stick big needles and ink in a fish.

i think the seller is just as bad, its because of people like him that those who inject make some money, and continue making money

dont tell me the seller didnt think about how the fish got that way...

 

[hc8719]

while were on the hybrid topic,

i dont have anything against hybrids, like a mule is a donkey and a horse, and mules have been around for hundreds of years, there was also an article about a zebra and horse being kept in the same pen...

i do however feel ligers and tions are wrong, you know, the stuff people mess around with

 

[DeFeKt]

let alone albinos

whats wrong with albinos? It's a recessive gene, not hybrid.

 

[mobiusnu]

http://tinyurl.com/r6z5r

I saw some of those at Ocean Floor in Phoenix a few months ago. I told them I wouldn't buy fish from them as long as they carried dyed fish.

 

[hc8719]

while were on the hybrid topic,

i dont have anything against hybrids, like a mule is a donkey and a horse, and mules have been around for hundreds of years, there was also an article about a zebra and horse being kept in the same pen...

i do however feel ligers and tions are wrong, you know, the stuff people mess around with

i retract my statements, i read up on parrot fish, and they actually have trouble eatting because of their hybridly small mouth, also curved spines are common in these fish, as well as other problems...

 

[Reefmonkey]

let alone albinos

whats wrong with albinos? It's a recessive gene, not hybrid.

I didn't say it is a hybrid. It is, however, a phenotype you aren't going to find in nature. Albinos which are born in nature get eaten up long before they have a chance to reproduce. Because it is a recessive trait, as you pointed out, and a rare one in nature, albino strains have to be constantly inbred to keep the strain going. That is part of my problem with any selectively bred strain of fish. The main problem I have is that they are not a phenotype found in nature, (and there are so many naturally attractive fish available, and often the albino form is of a fish that, wild-type, has beautiful coloration, so why get rid of that?) it strikes me as human arrogance to "improve" a fish species by altering its natural form.

Besides, it's my opinion, to which I am entitled, just like it is my opinion that fantasy football leagues (and watching professional sports in general) are a waste of time, and golf is a silly game involving grown men chasing a little round ball with sticks around an overly simplified rendition of nature that they call "getting outdoors". I am sure many think that serious fishkeeping is a ridiculous, nerdy hobby, and they are entitled to that opinion as well.

 

[Alshain]

But how far into hybrids do you object? I recently managed to create a hybrid color variation of swordtails by breeding a Pineapple swordtail with a Marigold swordtail. While they are the same species, this could still be considered a hybrid. I bred them purposely to create a color variation not found in the wild. Do you object to "creating" such a fish? In truth most guppies, platies and swordtails are bred in this matter. The green swordtail is the ONLY wild swordtail for example. They were bred with platies to create all the color variations we see today.

 

[Reefmonkey]

But how far into hybrids do you object? I recently managed to create a hybrid color variation of swordtails by breeding a Pineapple swordtail with a Marigold swordtail. While they are the same species, this could still be considered a hybrid. I bred them purposely to create a color variation not found in the wild. Do you object to "creating" such a fish? In truth most guppies, platies and swordtails are bred in this matter. The green swordtail is the ONLY wild swordtail for example. They were bred with platies to create all the color variations we see today.

Me? I pretty much don't like any fish that you could not catch in the wild. I don't think I ever had guppies, and I stopped keeping things like red wag swordtails in my tank about the same time I stopped keeping a bubbling treasure chest in it. I set up biotope aquariums, I like to try to as faithfully as possible recreate a specific habitat from somewhere else in the world with specific fishes that would be found there. Maybe it's the fact that I am an environmental scientist, that I make a living trying to restore nature to how it was before humans thoughtlessly or greedily changed it, and deal with human arrogance that nature is theirs to alter as they wish on a daily basis, that I find any human attempts to "improve" nature distasteful and want no part of it in my leisure time. It's a difference in philosophy. I don't "object" to your doing what you do, I'm not going to lobby to make it illegal, I just don't see a point to it, I don't value it.

 

[Alshain]

But the fish in my aquarium are not "nature". If they were, then they wouldn't be in the aquarium. Maybe its just me but from what you have said of your philosophy, keeping an aquarium or any kind of pet for that matter would be against it. How is it natural to put a bunch of fish in a glass box?

You say "nature is theirs to alter" like we are trying to change what is out there now. Last I checked, nobody is releasing genetic hybrids into the wild with the intent to propogate the new species. Now, that said, I don't agree with "parrot fish type" hybrids where the result is a weak and ultimately miserable fish. However, interbreeding Xiphophorus is completely normal, and the fish are more than willing to do it, so what is the problem?

 

[aquanewbie72]

UGH - the worst part of this story is that my LFS has a WHOLE TANK full of these dang things. I just saw them last weekend. I walked by and thought - oh look at those - they have all kinds of pretty rainbow color stripes - and then I took a step closer and saw the "I LOVE YOU" and I freaked. Thankfully that ain't the only LFS in the area- they've lost my business for good.

 

[Reefmonkey]

But the fish in my aquarium are not "nature". If they were, then they wouldn't be in the aquarium. Maybe its just me but from what you have said of your philosophy, keeping an aquarium or any kind of pet for that matter would be against it. How is it natural to put a bunch of fish in a glass box?

You say "nature is theirs to alter" like we are trying to change what is out there now. Last I checked, nobody is releasing genetic hybrids into the wild with the intent to propogate the new species. Now, that said, I don't agree with "parrot fish type" hybrids where the result is a weak and ultimately miserable fish. However, interbreeding Xiphophorus is completely normal, and the fish are more than willing to do it, so what is the problem?

Animals in a zoo are not "nature", either. Does that mean we should dye the zebras pink, showcase ligers, breed a longhair strain of impala, see if we can breed giraffes with even longer necks? What exactly would that do for our understanding of these species, and our appreciation for them in nature? Imagine going on a safari and being bored by all the animals, bland compared to those "improved" ones you have seen in zoos all your life. The whole argument that it isn't natural to keep fish in a glass box, so it is paradoxical to object to man-made fish is pretty tired and pretty specious.

And of course, the usual fellow traveller of that argument is that it isn't natural to keep any kind of pet, I have seen that fallacious argument more than once on this site, so I would like to lay it to rest once and for all. It is not "unnatural" for humans to have pets as a matter of course. Dogs actually naturally domesticated themselves to humans in the late paleolithic, by opportunistically hanging around human garbage sites for scraps, and cats started domesticating themselves to humans once we had developed granaries, which concentrated rodents for them to eat, and both species evolved over time to be more behaviorally compatible with humans because it was naturally advantageous for them to do so. That is neither here nor there to our current discussion, though. Maybe it is the scientist in me, but I don't really see my fish as "pets". I don't name them. I see them more as specimens. A pet is something that comes when you call its name, that has genuine affection for you, that has coevolved with you to be a pet. I only keep cats and dogs as pets, I don't keep hamster or any other prey animals. And I don't ride horses, partly for that reason, partly because I broke my tailbone in college and it still hurts sometimes, and partly because I think they are spooky animals, and I don't trust them, don't want to end up like Christopher Reeve.

When you quote me saying "nature is theirs to alter", you are actually taking my words way, way out of context. When I was talking about people altering nature, I was talking about my job, remediating contaminated property that had been thoughtlessly or greedily damaged by people who had no concern for the environment. I just said that since I see that all day, when I get home, I like to spend my hobby time with fish that are natural-looking, not that look like they were man-made. It's like saying that a police officer spends all day dealing with the seamy side of life, so doesn't want to come home and watch Law and Order: SVU. That is no kind of condemnation of the cast and crew of Law and Order, or anyone who watches the show.

Fish selectively bred for exaggerated traits can and often do interbreed with wildtype fish, contaminating the gene pool of the wildtype. For some fishes, such as Lake Victoria cichlids, the captive populations are becoming the last hope for the survival of the species, and possibly repropagating in the wild, and I would hate to see a particular species weakened by a greater frequency of albino alleles.

But really, I think you are getting too defensive about this. It's a difference in philosophy, a difference in taste. I have already said I am not trying to stop the sale of fancy guppies, red wag swordtails, etc, so if you think there aren't enough naturally attractive fish in this world, then by all means, keep "improving" swordtails, what do you care what I think about it?

 

[hc8719]

has anyone ever seen a wild discus, they're horribly ugly, just brown, even great lake fish look more colorful.

i have a pair of chomides, which by nature are naturally ugly colored too, but they've been bred into colors like orange and yellow.

bettas are a big one too, they arent really that colorful, and what about all the varieties, double crown, double tail...

and is breeding a fantail guppy with another guppy wrong, no

balloon mollies are a famous hybrid, they dont even exist in the wild

look how common koi angels are becoming, its just plain someone was messing around with them

chances are someone has a fish man tampered with, and as long as its doest produce a mutant fish (blood parrots) its ok

 

[Reefmonkey]

has anyone ever seen a wild discus, they're horribly ugly, just brown, even great lake fish look more colorful.

i have a pair of chomides, which by nature are naturally ugly colored too, but they've been bred into colors like orange and yellow.

bettas are a big one too, they arent really that colorful, and what about all the varieties, double crown, double tail...

and is breeding a fantail guppy with another guppy wrong, no

balloon mollies are a famous hybrid, they dont even exist in the wild

look how common koi angels are becoming, its just plain someone was messing around with them

chances are someone has a fish man tampered with, and as long as its doest produce a mutant fish (blood parrots) its ok

I wouldn't call wild discus "horribly" ugly. They may not be as colorful as some fancy strains, but I think the are attractive, and there are people out there who specialize in keeping wild discus. Here are some wild discus, I think many of them are quite pretty:

http://www.belowwater.com/fish/wild-discus/index.html

The blood parrot isn't a mutant, it's an interspecific hybrid.

Look, there is always going to be a spectrum of opinions on fish. There are the people who think it is alright to inject fish with dye. Then there are the people who think it is horrible to inject fish with dye, but alright to make blood parrots. Then there are the people who think it is wrong to make blood parrots, but okay to breed different varieties of fish with bizarre features, like bubbleeye goldfish. Then there are the people who think it is horrible to breed a fish with deformities like that, but okay to breed a fish to have different colors than it would have in the wild. Then there are guys like me, who dislike any selectively-bred variety of a fish that would not be found in the wild. I even dislike seeing a tank with otherwise compatible fish that would not be found together in the same part of the world, I'm a biotope purist. Everyone on that chain is going to look down on the person who is a little less strict than them. I just happen to be at the end of the chain, and I have shared my opinion on that with y'all. It doesn't mean I'm going to try to get any non-natural fish outlawed (with the exception of dye-injection). I'm stating my opinion, which I am entitled to do, but I'm not trying to keep anyone else from keeping the fish they want to. Heck, I even bought red sword tails and some colorful platys for my stepson's aquarium, along with some rainbowfish, because that's what he wanted, but when he oohed and ahhhed over some dyed glassfish, I explained to him why we shouldn't buy those, and would have done the same if he wanted a blood parrot or a bubble-eye goldfish. So seriously, y'all don't have to try to convince me that selectively bred strains of fish are okay, or cool or something, and while I hope that maybe you'll consider my reasons for disliking them, and one day maybe come to know the joys of a biotope aquarium, Im really not all that concerned that you like you fancy guppies or micky mouse platys or albino cory cats. Enjoy them, because, at the end of the day, if having a well maintained tank full of healthy, colorful fish living in harmony makes you happy, why should you care what the hell I think?