ich-quick cure..to use or not to use?

[Mebbid]

The point I'm making is Corydoras have been collected in higher salinity area's of many rivers and the reason for my response was that people state they are "intolerant" which simply isn't true. I would not recommend continued exposure to high amounts but when treating a parasite such as Ichthyophthirius high amounts of salt are not harmful and are very well "tolerated".

Definition of Intolerant...

Intolerant | Definition of intolerant by Merriam-Webster

It is a myth that salt cannot be used on this species of fish as a means of parasite medication. Salt can be added to the water of the Corydoras catfish in order to rid the fish of ich.
Taken from;
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Corydoras

Not exactly the end all be all but is a link that confirms the comment made by Hukit.

Cories don't like salt and I would never use salt propholatically on any of my fish,
But for treatment it is fine IMO .
There are sooo many "myths" or things we do(I know thing I do),
Just because it is what we do?
Sometimes way back there ,there is a reason(wish I knew them all,but....)

The problem with wikipedia, is that using it as a source is exactly the same as me saying "this guy told me once that it's a myth"

Take a look here: http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/corydoras-genus

Cories are sensitive to medication. Years ago, when tests were done to test the salt-tolerance of freshwater fishes, Corydoras died first. Malachite green will poison Cories before any other fishes are affected; it took me years to learn never to use Malachite green on a Cory cat. I pass this on to you.

Does it mean that link is right? Nope, especially since the studies that were quoted weren't cited. It's still quite a bit more reliable than wikipedia.

I have found no real scientifically done testing of salinity tolerance of cory catfish. (If you know of some, please share) With that exact statement in mind and the pervading belief that cory cats shouldn't be exposed to salt then why risk it? Even if there are no acute signs and symptoms of salinity problems with the fish, do we know for certain that there are no long term health problems related to it.

Imho, ich is far far too simple to treat with nothing but heat. There's no real reason to even bother with salt if the fish can tolerate the heat.

To the OP: If your heater can't maintain a heat of 86 degrees, then I would highly recommend upgrading your heater.

 

[Caliban07]

The problem with wikipedia, is that using it as a source is exactly the same as me saying "this guy told me once that it's a myth"

Take a look here: http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/corydoras-genus



Does it mean that link is right? Nope, especially since the studies that were quoted weren't cited. It's still quite a bit more reliable than wikipedia.

I have found no real scientifically done testing of salinity tolerance of cory catfish. (If you know of some, please share) With that exact statement in mind and the pervading belief that cory cats shouldn't be exposed to salt then why risk it? Even if there are no acute signs and symptoms of salinity problems with the fish, do we know for certain that there are no long term health problems related to it.

Imho, ich is far far too simple to treat with nothing but heat. There's no real reason to even bother with salt if the fish can tolerate the heat.

To the OP: If your heater can't maintain a heat of 86 degrees, then I would highly recommend upgrading your heater.

+1 but then we are in the same ball game of increasing heat to 'tolerable levels' how does this affect each species in the long run?

I'd say it was a better bet to go with the heat though. I don't believe it to be pure coincidence that the most common disease in Aquaria is the most easily treatable.


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[Delapool]

+1 but then we are in the same ball game of increasing heat to 'tolerable levels' how does this affect each species in the long run?

I'd say it was a better bet to go with the heat though. I don't believe it to be pure coincidence that the most common disease in Aquaria is the most easily treatable.


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Do you mean in the long run for a treatment or long term elevated temperatures? It rings a bell somewhere but only very dimly. Might of been something else.

 

[Reefer James]

The whole thing about Cory's and other scaleless fish being intolerant of salt is pretty much a myth, regurgitated time and time again on aquarium forums. Corys come from a very wide range of conditions from very acidic(black water), sediment rich(white water if you will) and everything else in between. Salt WILL not hurt them!

I'd strongly encourage more aquarist to consider more skeptical view points when scrolling through the forums in particular when there's recommendations and statements like above. The 'myth', as you put it, is not for scaleless fish its for the freshwater taxonomy. Brackish conditions exist for a reason... and fish that live within this category typically spawn between salt or freshwater and this has entered our hobby significantly...

DESPITE tolerances between species this does not account for any of the many negative effects of salt in aquaria.... (I hope salt is never used in a display if being properly used as a bath or medication) There are many many more paths to take for treatment with actual DATA to prove their results. Salt is performed because it is easy. Aquarist notice that ich has fallen off the fish after putting in salt, therefore this happened because of what I did. False, ich has now moved onto the next stage of it's life cycle where it is now multiplying to far far greater numbers.. Hey maybe salt didn't work. And who is ever going to return to their thread 2 weeks late when the ich outbreak is back and say you know what salt didn't work for me.. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. This is logical fallacy.

If you want a serious treatment for ich, consider copper based medications in QT with elevated temperatures...

_______

I would like to touch on scaleless fish and why it's even a thing in our hobby. No company is performing blanket trial study specific for scaleless fish with their medications (to my knowledge). And different species of scaleless fish will react differently. Because there is no study performed they do not state the medication may not works for this blanket termanology for many different Family: Genus species. We do however understand how scales work on fish and why fish without them may require special attention with specific medications we use.

 

[Caliban07]

Do you mean in the long run for a treatment or long term elevated temperatures? It rings a bell somewhere but only very dimly. Might of been something else.

What I mean is, if using salt as a temporary measure to treat a disease could be damaging, so could raising the temperature temporarily to treat the same disease. It is a known fact how increasing environmental temperatures effects all animals. Temperature influences enzymatic reactions through hormonal and nervous control to digestion, from respiration and osmoregulation to all aspects of an organism’s performance and behavior. Increase temperatures can also effect the toxicity and solubility of certain chemicals in the water. What I'm saying is, if you can argue that one thing such as salt carries risks, you can almost certainly argue that increasing heat does too. With different opinions on what temperature should be used to treat ich and the wide ranges of temperatures cited on various different sites for each species. Even raising temps should take care and consideration.


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[Reefer James]

Let's get rid of the opinions around ich and temp then. At 80-82 degree ich moves through it's lifecycle on fish in 48hours. This means it will be on the fish for less time allowing it's immune system to stay strong and fight off catching the parasite in the next round.

At 86 degrees less mutated ich has been known to die. Not to the point of removal in aquaria.. I would always recommend raising between 80-82 over the course of a few days depending on base temperature. Practicing clean conditions and providing the fish with proper room for territory promotes a more natural aquaria where stresses are not as present and fish are not as susceptible to ich and other illness. So maybe don't crank it to 86 but we know 80-82 helps speed up the stages of ich which allows us to keep our fish healthier between stages.

A healthy tank will fight off ich easily... A tank full of stressed fish are going to get sick. And if it's not the ich that kills them it will be the stress that allowed them to get another illness that is more fatal than ich. So rather than chemical/salt treatment lets practice preventative measures to keep fish healthy... If we want to medicate, let's stick with the tried trusted and true methods such as copper and temperature.

 

[Delapool]

What I mean is, if using salt as a temporary measure to treat a disease could be damaging, so could raising the temperature temporarily to treat the same disease. It is a known fact how increasing environmental temperatures effects all animals. Temperature influences enzymatic reactions through hormonal and nervous control to digestion, from respiration and osmoregulation to all aspects of an organism’s performance and behavior. Increase temperatures can also effect the toxicity and solubility of certain chemicals in the water. What I'm saying is, if you can argue that one thing such as salt carries risks, you can almost certainly argue that increasing heat does too. With different opinions on what temperature should be used to treat ich and the wide ranges of temperatures cited on various different sites for each species. Even raising temps should take care and consideration.


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Seems reasonable to me. Even if raising temp is seen as a natural treatment then worth keeping an eye on the fish still.

I did come across this article which I guess reflects what we see in the aquarium. Not knocking the heat treatment method but posted below. I found it a little wordy so have just copied the conclusion out.

"In B. balcanicus exposed to thermal stress due to temperature elevation of 10oC in a 60-minute period the mean PCV value increased substantially." --> Large and quick temp increase there!!

"The changes in parameters are the result of the response of the organism to the changed circumstances in their environment, that is their specific response in the form of “general adaptation syndrome” – stress which improved oxygen transport mechanism."

I take it this is the fish adapting to the heat stress by improving oxygen transport in the blood. Which uses energy and results in fat stores being drawn down.



http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=94&ved=0CCwQFjADOFo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academicjournals.org%2Fjournal%2FAJB%2Farticle-full-text-pdf%2F3A735A322452&ei=RbmGVb_iOtSD8gXQs6tQ&usg=AFQjCNFtiSfSCkj8f-eTfwKvw8jYUA6qIA&bvm=bv.96339352,d.dGY&cad=rja

 

[Caliban07]

Seems reasonable to me. Even if raising temp is seen as a natural treatment then worth keeping an eye on the fish still.

I did come across this article which I guess reflects what we see in the aquarium. Not knocking the heat treatment method but posted below. I found it a little wordy so have just copied the conclusion out.

"In B. balcanicus exposed to thermal stress due to temperature elevation of 10oC in a 60-minute period the mean PCV value increased substantially." --> Large and quick temp increase there!!

"The changes in parameters are the result of the response of the organism to the changed circumstances in their environment, that is their specific response in the form of “general adaptation syndrome” – stress which improved oxygen transport mechanism."

I take it this is the fish adapting to the heat stress by improving oxygen transport in the blood. Which uses energy and results in fat stores being drawn down.



http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...TfwKvw8jYUA6qIA&bvm=bv.96339352,d.dGY&cad=rja

That's a good article and signifies just one of the responses caused by increased heat. This rapid change though could be perhaps likened to a quit salt dip where as slowly increased temperatures over a longer period of time could be similar to lower salinity exposure over a large number of days. I'm not here to discuss this in depth but my point was simply that everything we do in aquaria will either directly or indirectly effect the inhabitants whether for better or for worse


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