Ich
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navaljonf
Aquarium Advice Freak
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It depends on the cause of the stress.
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Mebbid
Aquarium Advice Addict
A 6 week fallow period for the reef and in a separate tank a hyposalinity treatment for the fish.
Holygral
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Some Ich facts:
First off, cleaner shrimp will not help, there are only 3 known proven treatments of MI. And ALL must be done in a qt. 1.Copper, instructions must be followed to a T, MUST be done in QT, very hard on the fish, 2.Hypo, to be done correctly it needs to be done with a refractometer, swing arms are to inaccurate and inconsistent, must be down in a qt, may take 4-8 weeks, and a lesser use transfer method, uses a ton of salt rodi and labor. Also DT will need to be fallow (fish less) for 8-10 weeks for MI to die off without a host (fish) to keep it multiplying. There are NO reef safe meds, ick out, ick cure, ick rid or any of the other snake oils out there. Ick outbreaks are caused by stress and any Tang in a small tank will be stressed out, they swim 25 miles or more a day. Also do not do copper and hypo at the same time.
Fish get ich from stress, too small of a tank, too many fish, incompatable tank mates. Or bad unstable parameters. I personally don't qt or am sure I believe in it. I have 3 tangs all from different sources and have never had to deal with it, is it luck or a stress free tank, really hard to tell. Unless you are goingbto qt EVERYTHING, fish, corals, lr, or anything wet, then you are not going to keep it out of your tank. Just remember there are NO safe reef ich meds,:
First off, cleaner shrimp will not help, there are only 3 known proven treatments of MI. And ALL must be done in a qt. 1.Copper, instructions must be followed to a T, MUST be done in QT, very hard on the fish, 2.Hypo, to be done correctly it needs to be done with a refractometer, swing arms are to inaccurate and inconsistent, must be down in a qt, may take 4-8 weeks, and a lesser use transfer method, uses a ton of salt rodi and labor. Also DT will need to be fallow (fish less) for 8-10 weeks for MI to die off without a host (fish) to keep it multiplying. There are NO reef safe meds, ick out, ick cure, ick rid or any of the other snake oils out there. Ick outbreaks are caused by stress and any Tang in a small tank will be stressed out, they swim 25 miles or more a day. Also do not do copper and hypo at the same time.
Fish get ich from stress, too small of a tank, too many fish, incompatable tank mates. Or bad unstable parameters. I personally don't qt or am sure I believe in it. I have 3 tangs all from different sources and have never had to deal with it, is it luck or a stress free tank, really hard to tell. Unless you are goingbto qt EVERYTHING, fish, corals, lr, or anything wet, then you are not going to keep it out of your tank. Just remember there are NO safe reef ich meds,:
Holygral
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Some Ich facts:
First off, cleaner shrimp will not help, there are only 3 known proven treatments of MI. And ALL must be done in a qt. 1.Copper, instructions must be followed to a T, MUST be done in QT, very hard on the fish, 2.Hypo, to be done correctly it needs to be done with a refractometer, swing arms are to inaccurate and inconsistent, must be down in a qt, may take 4-8 weeks, and a lesser use transfer method, uses a ton of salt rodi and labor. Also DT will need to be fallow (fish less) for 8-10 weeks for MI to die off without a host (fish) to keep it multiplying. There are NO reef safe meds, ick out, ick cure, ick rid or any of the other snake oils out there. Ick outbreaks are caused by stress and any Tang in a small tank will be stressed out, they swim 25 miles or more a day. Also do not do copper and hypo at the same time.
Fish get ich from stress, too small of a tank, too many fish, incompatable tank mates. Or bad unstable parameters. I personally don't qt or am sure I believe in it. Unless you are goingbto qt EVERYTHING, fish, corals, lr, or anything wet, then you are not going to keep it out of your tank. Just remember there are NO safe reef ich meds,:
First off, cleaner shrimp will not help, there are only 3 known proven treatments of MI. And ALL must be done in a qt. 1.Copper, instructions must be followed to a T, MUST be done in QT, very hard on the fish, 2.Hypo, to be done correctly it needs to be done with a refractometer, swing arms are to inaccurate and inconsistent, must be down in a qt, may take 4-8 weeks, and a lesser use transfer method, uses a ton of salt rodi and labor. Also DT will need to be fallow (fish less) for 8-10 weeks for MI to die off without a host (fish) to keep it multiplying. There are NO reef safe meds, ick out, ick cure, ick rid or any of the other snake oils out there. Ick outbreaks are caused by stress and any Tang in a small tank will be stressed out, they swim 25 miles or more a day. Also do not do copper and hypo at the same time.
Fish get ich from stress, too small of a tank, too many fish, incompatable tank mates. Or bad unstable parameters. I personally don't qt or am sure I believe in it. Unless you are goingbto qt EVERYTHING, fish, corals, lr, or anything wet, then you are not going to keep it out of your tank. Just remember there are NO safe reef ich meds,:
Ive had ich - I have tried EVERY SINGLE "reef-safe" medication. They do not work - do not believe them. The Herbatana(sp?), the Kordon reef-safe Prevent Ich, Kick-Ich, etc. all say they are effective, I personally call BS.
The quarantine method works (although for me it always stressed the fish) - but in 6-8 weeks you have an ich-free tank!
The copper works, but you cannot use it on live rock, inverts, etc. - and since one of the stages of the parasite live in the sand - that wont work for a reef tank either.
Hypo-salinity sounds like a good idea, but I never tried it.
As for personal experience, I have had ich, but I gave up on quarantining everyone all the time. I fed the fish a lot of garlic and vitamin soaked food and lots of water changes. I do not suggest this for everyone, and who knows if my method even worked.
But seriously, dont go for the various "reef safe" ich treatments
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The quarantine method works (although for me it always stressed the fish) - but in 6-8 weeks you have an ich-free tank!
The copper works, but you cannot use it on live rock, inverts, etc. - and since one of the stages of the parasite live in the sand - that wont work for a reef tank either.
Hypo-salinity sounds like a good idea, but I never tried it.
As for personal experience, I have had ich, but I gave up on quarantining everyone all the time. I fed the fish a lot of garlic and vitamin soaked food and lots of water changes. I do not suggest this for everyone, and who knows if my method even worked.
But seriously, dont go for the various "reef safe" ich treatments
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Good reading about the parasite
An Ounce of Prevention is Worth a Pound of Cure: A Quarantine Tank for Everything by Steven Pro
Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part I by Steven Pro
Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part II by Steven Pro
An Ounce of Prevention is Worth a Pound of Cure: A Quarantine Tank for Everything by Steven Pro
Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part I by Steven Pro
Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part II by Steven Pro
jeffaquarius
Aquarium Advice Addict
This quote is taken from Treatment Option Part II
"Natural Immunity
"Fish can develop immunity to Cryptocaryon irritans that can last for up to six months (Colorni, 1987 and Colorni & Burgess, 1997). It is this natural immunity that makes evaluating the effectiveness of various treatment options so difficult. How can someone ever be certain that what they dosed to their tank or fed to their fish is what caused the cure they observed? The answer is simple, they can't. Until there are controlled, scientific studies, preferably repeated a few times, we cannot be sure that any of the newer homeopathic or "reef-safe" treatments actually work."
MY COMMENT:
The author is not convinced of the natural or herbal medicine such as Xtreme garlic to boost immune system because obviously he has not applied or experienced it himself. There may be no scientific studies on its effectiveness but I am one of those who have success with it. It is just a matter of doing it right. I did have ich on my Yellow and Blue tangs before I started treating them. Not in weeks but months. The ich just started disappearing after couple of days after application. I do both mixing with food and to water. I even have to apply it twice a day when I still see any of them scratching as the rocks. The key is use the right amount to be effective. You can not overdose.
jeffaquarius
Aquarium Advice Addict
I forgot to mention that it also depends on the severity of the ICH outbreak. If it is impossible to QT all your fish then you have 2 options to make.
1. Just let all the fish die and fallow the tank for 2 months then start all over with fish.
2. Apply Xtreme garlic for 2 months or more until you are convinced the ICH has been irradicated.
I am pretty sure the good choice is #2. Whither it is effective or not at least you tried to save your fish.
1. Just let all the fish die and fallow the tank for 2 months then start all over with fish.
2. Apply Xtreme garlic for 2 months or more until you are convinced the ICH has been irradicated.
I am pretty sure the good choice is #2. Whither it is effective or not at least you tried to save your fish.
Holygral
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Just waiting it out until all you fish die is very ill responsible , think about how many newbie see that comment, that is so not an option, if you have an infection or and issue and you decision is to just let everything die and start over, you shouldn't be in this hobby, sorry but that was an lame comment, omg ugh this is not a throw away hobby, this is so the wrong attitude, lets just keep killing our oceans and just buy more. This is why governments are starting to regulate, we are becoming part of the problem and not part of the solution. UGH
jeffaquarius
Aquarium Advice Addict
You are absolutely right! That means it leaves you only 1 option which is the #2. Unless you have other options that you can share. I was just laying out the right and wrong.
2. Apply Xtreme garlic for 2 months or more until you are convinced the ICH has been irradicated.
From the same author
Garlic: What has been Studied Versus What has been Claimed by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com
From the same author
Garlic: What has been Studied Versus What has been Claimed by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com
jeffaquarius
Aquarium Advice Addict
Good reading on that one and the post is very much appreciated. Again, we are talking about which option to take when there is no way you can QT all your fish in another container for 8 weeks. I still need to hear yet from someone who was successful in doing so. if it is popular that Garlic is effective, I strongly incline to believe the testimony of those people regardless of no scientific evidence. Since I was able to prove it to myself so I am convinced.
Mebbid
Aquarium Advice Addict
Garlic is NOT going to eradicate ich. Period. However, it can presumably strengthen the fishes immune system reducing the number of occurrences of ich that fish has. My tank had ich for a little over a year with maybe 1 visible cyst a month. The fish were fighting it off and doing a good job of it, but the parasite is still there.
Even if you don't see the cysts on the fish that doesn't mean they aren't there. The gills are the very first thing that ich will affect.
Doing something as simple as keeping your nitrates as close to zero as possible and creating a stress free environment will do wonders at controlling your ich. That's what many very experienced members of the community does including Gregcoyote and Mr. X if I'm not mistaken.
Even if you don't see the cysts on the fish that doesn't mean they aren't there. The gills are the very first thing that ich will affect.
Doing something as simple as keeping your nitrates as close to zero as possible and creating a stress free environment will do wonders at controlling your ich. That's what many very experienced members of the community does including Gregcoyote and Mr. X if I'm not mistaken.
jeffaquarius
Aquarium Advice Addict
That's not an answer to my simple question. What is your option?
Mebbid
Aquarium Advice Addict
What exactly was your simple question?
jeffaquarius
Aquarium Advice Addict
So you just posted something without even reading what is being discussed? Reread my comment after Melosu58 which is right before you posted yours. I guess it explains why your fish were wiped out when you did not take any option to treat them.
Mebbid
Aquarium Advice Addict
I read the entire thread about what was being discussed but your vaguely worded question escaped me as to what you were seriously talking about.
As a matter of fact I've never lost a fish to ich, whether it's salt water or fresh water so I am not sure who you got me mixed up with. There are also many many people that successfully treat their fish with a hyposalinity quarantine. Just because they aren't posting in this thread doesn't mean they aren't here.
If you're referring to my issue with velvet, then that's the time when the spots showed up on a fish that I added to a tank where I was performing hyposalinity to take care of my ich once and for all. Never seen a problem with sickness other than ich at my LFS so I made the mistake of trusting him. When the first sign of velvet showed up I noticed it as I was leaving to go downstate to take my mother to a fairly important doctor appointment. By the time I came back it was too late for the 2 fish I lost. But you're right; it was OBVIOUSLY because I took no option to treat my fish.
If you still haven't found proof that a fallow period and QT treating fish works then check back with me in a month and I will show you an ich free tank after I transfer my 20 reef over.
If that is the question then that is not the only two choices. A UV would be another option. Feeding algae based foods would be another. If it was me I would go the UV light way on an ich outbreak. Not trying to discount anyone's experience. There is more than one way to do things in this hobby. If garlic worked for you then I am glad.
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